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Old April 19th, 2017, 05:53 PM   #1
Doc Sk8
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Default A new DA45.





The plate is the new magnesium Axis. ~300.00 retail It has a real 45 king pin unlike all the other DA45s that are around 30. It also is lacking the adjustable pivot pin.

The actions in the pix have been worked on since the first time out the action was quite disappointing, as in it felt like an Arius. It does not now however. So what was the cause?? The same issue with Arius. The action was being choked by the retainers. Well, that and the 85a (medium?? I don't thinks so) cushions....




This pic is magnesium Octane. (same retail price as the Axis.) Look close @ the action parts. Other than the trucks (obviously) and the king pins (shorter and not so obvious) they are essentially identical to the parts that came on the Axis. I'll admit, I goofed around w/ my Axis and did not take before pix..sorry..

So how does it sk8?? About like my Avenger now. Amazing how replacing some parts can completely change the character of the action.
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Old April 20th, 2017, 12:42 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post




The plate is the new magnesium Axis. ~300.00 retail It has a real 45 king pin unlike all the other DA45s that are around 30. It also is lacking the adjustable pivot pin.

The actions in the pix have been worked on since the first time out the action was quite disappointing, as in it felt like an Arius. It does not now however. So what was the cause?? The same issue with Arius. The action was being choked by the retainers. Well, that and the 85a (medium?? I don't thinks so) cushions....




This pic is magnesium Octane. (same retail price as the Axis.) Look close @ the action parts. Other than the trucks (obviously) and the king pins (shorter and not so obvious) they are essentially identical to the parts that came on the Axis. I'll admit, I goofed around w/ my Axis and did not take before pix..sorry..

So how does it sk8?? About like my Avenger now. Amazing how replacing some parts can completely change the character of the action.
New geometry trucks?
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Old April 20th, 2017, 01:26 AM   #3
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New geometry trucks?
Yeah I guess the pic does not really show it. Sorry.. They do not fit any of the other DA45 plates. Pretty much would have to be since the king pin is no kidding 45...
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Old April 20th, 2017, 02:31 AM   #4
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Default Try to Describe the Action You Doc now feels

Hi Doc,

I usually stay away from Quad, yet your note caught my eye.

OK try to describe the before and after. Your experience.


The thing I noticed the most with skaters on the DA45 was the over turning,
as if the skate was controlling them more than they were controlling the skate.
Now it might be an advantage on Flat Track on the corners, as you need to weave sideways, yet it did not look so good for general skating, and even for most of Derby. Now I know some will disagree with me that have skated it.

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
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Old April 20th, 2017, 05:03 AM   #5
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Hi Doc,

I usually stay away from Quad, yet your note caught my eye.

I had not seen you in a while. Nice to have you back.

OK try to describe the before and after. Your experience.

Before what?? Before I was ever on a "DA45"?? That was 1999 when I got my first Snyder Royal. Or when I first rolled this plate??


The thing I noticed the most with skaters on the DA45 was the over turning,
as if the skate was controlling them more than they were controlling the skate.

Allow me to point out a fallacy in that statement. The sk8 controls nothing... Not now, not ever. Don't believe me?? Set you sk8s on the floor and watch 'em for a while... Based on my experience, they do nothing, but sit there.

What you are seeing if someone is truly out of control is a sk8r w/ 1) an improperly set up or adjusted sk8 or 2) a sk8r that is trying to sk8 them like their old sk8s. When learning a new action allowing ones old muscle memory to take over does not produce great results.

...
Now it might be an advantage on Flat Track on the corners, as you need to weave sideways, yet it did not look so good for general skating, and even for most of Derby. Now I know some will disagree with me that have skated it.
Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave

Let me be the first. I seldom get on anything less than a 20 action for session. My preferred sk8s are 25 to 30 sk8s. When I go to the rink I seldom have anything but that type of sk8. Having sk8ed them for years, I find less responsive actions to be just that..less responsive... so boring. As far as derby, I still see a lot of derby sk8rs doing quite well on the Avengers and since Roller Derby and Chaya (Powerslide) have similar now, it seems that the industry is starting to be aware of the potential.

It all comes down to what ever makes the sk8r happy. I have built and sold a ton of DA45 style sk8s over the years and the demand has not fallen off.... someone must be happy. I have new 495 w/ a Royal going together for a customer right now.
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Old April 20th, 2017, 04:01 PM   #6
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DA45 is all I want, and every used since the 1970s. I did have a 10 degree DA plate for a short while on a pair of nice boots. I did NOT like it. Like Doc says, they seemed boring. I swapped out the plate for the same type in 45, and felt a wave of relief as the feeling I like came back.

Good to see a new plate, by the way.
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Old April 20th, 2017, 04:14 PM   #7
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Nice to see a true DA45 with traditional kingpin design out there. How is the weight compared to Avenger Mag?
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Old April 20th, 2017, 04:14 PM   #8
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Doc, Thanks for the write-up.
How does the king pin attach to the plate? What are we seeing in the window cut in the plate? Is it the king pin? Or an insert of some kind?
It is hard to tell from the pictures.
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Old April 20th, 2017, 07:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
I can't get over the "windowing" of the KP threaded bores in this plate, and the consequent reduction in strength of those threaded joints. I see a couple places where a different machining strategy could have saved (probably) just as much weight as those KP bore windows, without a loss of structural integrity... and that's without going NTS.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 02:49 PM   #10
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Nice to see a true DA45 with traditional kingpin design out there.

Traditional?? You mean the complicated grub screw locked "micrometer" adjustment alloy king pin. Soon as my machinist (Can you say Wes Wild?? I can...) gets back in the HSM, I will replace those w/ some custom one piece lock nut style king pins. He has several feet of my 7075 0.5" rod for just that purpose. Basically, a Pro Line plate end that uses a lock nut with a plain threaded adjusting end like the PowerDyne parts.

Years back, during one of my many go rounds w/ Armadillo I defended the high end, multi part design micrometer king pins, but he made some valid points from an engineering standpoint. After thinking it through, and replacing parts for customers that displayed exactly the issues he described, I quit using them on my custom builds that use 1/2 - 20tpi alloy king pins. (OK I have some custom 3/8 Ti king pins that follow the same concept..)

The self locking adjusting nuts are more than adequate and simpler. No collet w/ grub screw to break from:
1) over tightening the action nut then spreading the fingers too far lock the nut... PRO TIP. If you have more than 1 -1/2 threads showing outside your adjuster nut, get the right cushions..
2) stripping the king pin OD threads or adjuster nut ID threads from forgetting to loosen the grub screw.
3) stripping the collet threads from over tightening the grub screw.
AND no more unintended suspension disassembly incidents from forgetting to tighten the grub screw.

Granted most of these issues are easily avoidable if the sk8r pays attention and knows what they are doing but I believe that less parts and less tools with equal or better results makes a good point. Keep it simple. I cannot see any benefit in something that has increased complexity with no true mechanical benefit unless it increases the manufacturers profit.

How is the weight compared to Avenger Mag?
This particular plate (6.25" or 159mm) weighed in around 428gms. Not bad @ all.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 02:50 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by amohrfeld View Post
Doc, Thanks for the write-up.
How does the king pin attach to the plate? What are we seeing in the window cut in the plate? Is it the king pin? Or an insert of some kind?
It is hard to tell from the pictures.
That is the king pin.
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Old April 21st, 2017, 03:03 PM   #12
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I can't get over the "windowing" of the KP threaded bores in this plate, and the consequent reduction in strength of those threaded joints.

There is almost twice as much tread on that king pin as any other I have ever seen. I don't think the window really reduces the strength to a dangerous level. Besides this seems to be a trend....
Chaya Shiva DA45. This action is almost a direct knock off of the Avenger, the trucks interchange. Note the 8mm flip axles. Before ya ask these are NOT inexpensive trucks.

I see a couple places where a different machining strategy could have saved (probably) just as much weight as those KP bore windows, without a loss of structural integrity... and that's without going NTS.

Care to share?? I can pass the info on to the guys behind the RD Elite stuff. Oh as far as loss of structural integrity, let's wait to see if there are any reports from the field that substantiates your assertion. You could be quite correct. It does look pretty obvious, but then how many invisible design flaws have we seen pop up w/ no warning @ all??

Yeah NTS would be cool, but nobody is building outdoor racing plates any more. It's all derby, derby, derby.....

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Old April 23rd, 2017, 03:21 AM   #13
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Default The axis and chaya

trucks look like the centerlines between the cushions nearly line up with the center of the pivot. Very interesting, an easily adjustable plate....
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Old Yesterday, 03:39 AM   #14
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Default More info on my Question to your posts.

Hi DocF,

Below is the comment you wrote I would like you to elaborate.

"The actions in the pix have been worked on since the first time out the action was quite disappointing, as in it felt like an Arius."

What was disappointing in terms of skate feel?

"It does not now however. So what was the cause?? The same issue with Arius. The action was being choked by the retainers. Well, that and the 85a (medium?? I don't thinks so) cushions...."

It seems like you have some doubts as to why, yet I am interested in this "choking"

What skate moves do you do that tell you everything is as you like it, or is not like you like it..

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
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Old Yesterday, 03:27 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MANY_SkatingDave View Post
Hi DocF,

Below is the comment you wrote I would like you to elaborate.

"The actions in the pix have been worked on since the first time out the action was quite disappointing, as in it felt like an Arius."

What was disappointing in terms of skate feel?

The action choked up, way too quickly for my liking. All urethane sk8 actions "choke" to some extent. It is the nature of the beast since urethane does not compress. Anything in the design of the action that limits the movement of the urethane changes the response curve of the action compared to how it would behave without the obstructions in the way.

"It does not now however."

So what was the cause??

The retainers and the stiff cushions. I typically run 72-75A cushions on DA45 type plates.

"The same issue with Arius. The action was being choked by the retainers."

The Arius chokes because of the design of the plate and trucks. The Axis was choking from the large lips on the retainers that shortened the effective length of the cushions.

"Well, that and the 85a (medium?? I don't thinks so) cushions...."


It seems like you have some doubts as to why, yet I am interested in this "choking"

What I was doubting is calling 85A medium. In fact I dislike anytime a number is translated into a description. Just call it what it is by measurement and let the user figure out what they like. Cushions are not that expensive.

The "choking" was explained toward the top of this post and it has also been discussed in some depth over the past few years.

What skate moves do you do that tell you everything is as you like it, or is not like you like it..

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave

Moves?? I don't need "moves" to determine whether I like an action or not. If it can't get me around the floor one time just rolling without my brain telling me there is an issue... well that's all I need to call it. (To be honest, there have been times I have not even made it to the floor before stopping to change sk8s) It is also what sends me on my way to trying to fix / improve it. I don't buy this stuff to not enjoy it.


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