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Old January 30th, 2014, 08:54 PM   #1
theDonnybrook
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Default Best Squat for Skating

I am trying to start a weight lifting flamewar regarding preferred methods of squating...

Seriously, though, there has been some suggestion that the Front Squat is better for sport cross training. Does anyone have any experience with how different types of squats effect or impact skating?
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Old January 31st, 2014, 04:36 AM   #2
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I am trying to start a weight lifting flamewar regarding preferred methods of squating...

Seriously, though, there has been some suggestion that the Front Squat is better for sport cross training. Does anyone have any experience with how different types of squats effect or impact skating?
The ones you do?
seriously, when I watch videos of top skaters they seem to be doing full squats. Knees apart go low (just past 90?)
But some times I do them with knees close more to work on skater pose then build muscle.
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Old January 31st, 2014, 06:36 AM   #3
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Power cleans are better than squats for skating.
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Old January 31st, 2014, 03:03 PM   #4
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Power cleans are better than squats for skating.
Full power clean includes a front squat, and an Olympic style cleans usually involve a very deep front squat. Fuel for the fire? I am planning on adding these to my weight routine starting next week, though.

Slowsk8, lately I have been doing a lot of squats that are oriented to equalizing imbalances, notably working that inner quad muscle. I am looking for opinions on variations of the squat to gauge where my time is better spent in the gym. I make it a point to squat past parallel and will reduce weight in favor of form.
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Old February 1st, 2014, 04:16 PM   #5
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Did someone say squat
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Old February 6th, 2014, 02:55 AM   #6
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You don't need to front squat. There isn't any real improvement from a real squat, which is all you need in most senses. Placing the bar across the clavicles, in front squats, is awkward and reduces total load, making the lift less productive. Power Cleans are great lifts and I have worked them in to my lifting routine in the past, but I wouldn't recommend them. Olympic style lifts are dangerous. Doing power cleans with a weight that makes the lift beneficial is a recipe for injury for most recreational lifters. Your squat should get your thigh parallel to the floor, maybe a tiny bit lower. No more. Elevating the heels is fine if you need to... And yes, Donny, sacrificing weight for form is my rule also. Especially with free weight lifts.

Power Cleaans with safe/comfortable weights don't do much. Like any lift, if you aren't forcing adaptation you are wasting your time. Increasing reps or load make for the best adaptive stressors. Momentum with heavy loads, or almost any load, should be avoided without a coach or proper preparation.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 04:44 AM   #7
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PBLsQuad, thanks. I have been doing a lot of lifting this year, but have only really been on the weights bandwagon for the last two off-seasons. I have an Olympic set I lift with now. I agree that the squats are basically squats, save differences in form. The query concerning front squats came from the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEwzyHeAlos

Thoughts?
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Old February 6th, 2014, 06:12 PM   #8
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My question would be what aspect of skating are you looking to improve from squatting?

The start, a sprint, or endurance?
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Old February 6th, 2014, 06:38 PM   #9
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Default Supreme 90 - Legs video - most thorough leg workout I've found

I know this isn't quite in the vein you meant, but for years I've done strength training at home using videos. By far the most thorough leg workout I have is from the Supreme 90 video set (found mine at Bed Bath and Beyond for $10).

I work out and/or skate daily, use only workout videos rated 'advanced', and consider myself in very good shape for my age. But this vid works the lower body every conceivable way, and utterly whips my a__ every time I do it. I'm sore for up to 4 days afterward. Note that younger exercisers can expect to recover sooner - I'm 50. The workout takes about 45 minutes including warmup and cooldown/stretch.

For what it's worth....
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Old February 6th, 2014, 08:01 PM   #10
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Default My 2 cents....

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Originally Posted by theDonnybrook View Post
Full power clean includes a front squat, and an Olympic style cleans usually involve a very deep front squat. Fuel for the fire? I am planning on adding these to my weight routine starting next week, though.

Slowsk8, lately I have been doing a lot of squats that are oriented to equalizing imbalances, notably working that inner quad muscle. I am looking for opinions on variations of the squat to gauge where my time is better spent in the gym. I make it a point to squat past parallel and will reduce weight in favor of form.
.....And since you mentioned inner quads too, I sugest more of a power lifting squat. Does not need to be super wide, but I like just beyond shoulder width. I like to carry the bar fairly low accross the shoulder, it should be on your traps. If you can fee it on your neck, or you need a bar pad, the bar is too high across the shoulders.

I like to squat past 90, and with the wider stance it makes it easier to get down to parallel while keeping back straight, it lets your butt straight down instead of going back like when your legs are close together. With time you can get lower as your hip flexibility/stregeth improves, but don't try an go lower than you can with good form. If you feel you need to bend at waist to get lower you still need to work on flexibility.

I feel wide squats are very effective in hips/inner quad development. To me, every aspect of explosive athletics (skating, football, wresling, etc) starts with the hips.

Let the flamewar rage on.
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Old February 6th, 2014, 11:01 PM   #11
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My question would be what aspect of skating are you looking to improve from squatting?

The start, a sprint, or endurance?
Sprint and endurance mainly. I skate mostly marathons, so start isn't as big of an issue. Part of the goal of getting stronger is more push power, generally, with the goal of lowering my HR over time for races. Also, to generate more top speed for both cruising and sprinting.
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Old February 7th, 2014, 02:56 AM   #12
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PBLsQuad, thanks. I have been doing a lot of lifting this year, but have only really been on the weights bandwagon for the last two off-seasons. I have an Olympic set I lift with now. I agree that the squats are basically squats, save differences in form. The query concerning front squats came from the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEwzyHeAlos

Thoughts?
Hey Donny!! I wouldn't disagree with any of that post. I would ask though, why are you doing squats? I am a huge fan of the Roman Chair. Front squats are fine, but I don't see the utility of using them for core work, beyond what squats already do? Here is my simple opinion on it... I squat PRIMARILY to develop leg (lower body) strength. Generating skating speed equals good form, and good form equals the ability to stay low, in skating position. What will happen in the example provided is the load will go down from what it would be back squatting so you are simply robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's Tuco's law... If you are going to shoot, shoot. If you squat to develop lower body strength don't front squat! It will lower the adaptive pressure on your lower body in exchange for nominal work on your core etc... Instead, see Roman Chair. Use lifts to do what they do best. For example, use an investment product for your investments and an insurance product for your insurance. Don't use those hybrid investment insurance/investment products. Sure, they work, but not nearly as well as products designed for more specific purposes. And, traditional squats get at those same areas, perhap to a lesser degree. I'm using chains at the moment. 45 pounders. I have ring clips so I can adjust the amount of chain off the floor at the top of the lift. It allows you to get a lot of the benefit of power cleans without the riskier elements. The load increases at the TOP of the lift. The load is not stationary so the stabilizer muscles get increased attention. Accelerating through the lift is more natural than the typical free weight since the load lightens at the bottom (with more chain on the floor).
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Old February 7th, 2014, 03:16 AM   #13
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Hey Donny!! I wouldn't disagree with any of that post. I would ask though, why are you doing squats? I am a huge fan of the Roman Chair. Front squats are fine, but I don't see the utility of using them for core work, beyond what squats already do? Here is my simple opinion on it... I squat PRIMARILY to develop leg (lower body) strength. Generating skating speed equals good form, and good form equals the ability to stay low, in skating position. What will happen in the example provided is the load will go down from what it would be back squatting so you are simply robbing Peter to pay Paul. It's Tuco's law... If you are going to shoot, shoot. If you squat to develop lower body strength don't front squat! It will lower the adaptive pressure on your lower body in exchange for nominal work on your core etc... Instead, see Roman Chair. Use lifts to do what they do best. For example, use an investment product for your investments and an insurance product for your insurance. Don't use those hybrid investment insurance/investment products. Sure, they work, but not nearly as well as products designed for more specific purposes. And, traditional squats get at those same areas, perhap to a lesser degree. I'm using chains at the moment. 45 pounders. I have ring clips so I can adjust the amount of chain off the floor at the top of the lift. It allows you to get a lot of the benefit of power cleans without the riskier elements. The load increases at the TOP of the lift. The load is not stationary so the stabilizer muscles get increased attention. Accelerating through the lift is more natural than the typical free weight since the load lightens at the bottom (with more chain on the floor).
Excellent post!

In addition to chains you can use jump stretch bands. Accommodating resistance using one of these 2 is the best way to develop an explosive lower half.

If you need to build functional hip flexibility do box squats off a low box. If you are looking to hit your core with a form of a squat do zercher squats off a box as an assistance exercise.
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Old February 7th, 2014, 03:54 AM   #14
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Did someone say squat
Holy SQUAT Batman!!!

I would guess a regular squat would work best.

And how about some pre-exhaust: Leg extension and leg curl before the squat. That could keep the weight down some, but still be effective.
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Old February 7th, 2014, 03:40 PM   #15
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Default Never liked pre-exhaustion

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Holy SQUAT Batman!!!

I would guess a regular squat would work best.

And how about some pre-exhaust: Leg extension and leg curl before the squat. That could keep the weight down some, but still be effective.
I never understood idea of excessive warm up/pre-exhaustion, etc.

To me compound movement exercise are extremely taxing, specifially on you central nervous system, and maintaing form when any of the body parts involved are pre-taxed so to speak is extremely difficult. On days I squat I warm up on a stationary bike till I am warm, squat, stretch, milk, in that order

another thing to consider on top of the good stuff already mentioned, I think high rep squats are fantastic,

Once comfotable with your squat, depth, weight you use etc, you can take this challenge:

What ever weight you can do for 10 reps in a normal set of squats you can most likely do for 20 reps if you realy (REALY) try.

After you do first 10 reps, taking your time you can do about 10 more "single" reps without re-racking the bar, breathing between reps, and performing each as if it were a one rep max squat.

You will add lots of muscular indurance with this type of lifting, and it will also help yout mentally train through "pain". Continuing to bang out reps when you thought you were done 5 reps ago is very rewarding!

Of course, you would want a spotter who know how to spot when you do these, or do them inside a squat cage so if you fail you can put bar down without injury.

Like others have mentioned, chains/bands are fantastic. I never liked bands as much, for whatever reason chains always felt smoother to me, although admittedly, I used them more for bench than squat.

Don't forget the milk!
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Old February 7th, 2014, 06:28 PM   #16
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Forgive me for I am new to this forum and do not know anyone or their backgrounds. I would like to think I'm in excellent workout shape. I workout 4-5 times per week. I only work squats once every two weeks or so. For the skating stuff my wife suggested I try Pop Squats with my body weight on the bar. I pop squat 185lbs (5) set of 15,14,13,12,11,10. After each set she recommended I follow up with 10L/10R single leg pop squats with no weight after.

My wife has a PHD/Doctorate in rehabilitation science and physical fitness from MUSC Charleston. She is my strength and conditioning rock.

Cheers!

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Old February 7th, 2014, 06:54 PM   #17
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I never understood idea of excessive warm up/pre-exhaustion, etc.

To me compound movement exercise are extremely taxing, specifially on you central nervous system, and maintaing form when any of the body parts involved are pre-taxed so to speak is extremely difficult. On days I squat I warm up on a stationary bike till I am warm, squat, stretch, milk, in that order

another thing to consider on top of the good stuff already mentioned, I think high rep squats are fantastic,

Once comfotable with your squat, depth, weight you use etc, you can take this challenge:

What ever weight you can do for 10 reps in a normal set of squats you can most likely do for 20 reps if you realy (REALY) try.

After you do first 10 reps, taking your time you can do about 10 more "single" reps without re-racking the bar, breathing between reps, and performing each as if it were a one rep max squat.

You will add lots of muscular indurance with this type of lifting, and it will also help yout mentally train through "pain". Continuing to bang out reps when you thought you were done 5 reps ago is very rewarding!

Of course, you would want a spotter who know how to spot when you do these, or do them inside a squat cage so if you fail you can put bar down without injury.

Like others have mentioned, chains/bands are fantastic. I never liked bands as much, for whatever reason chains always felt smoother to me, although admittedly, I used them more for bench than squat.

Don't forget the milk!
Yeah 20 rep squat routines are tough! Good for strength endurance and adding muscle mass.

OP the squat is not an "endurance" exercise like what you would need it for. If you are looking for something like that with a squat motion do body squats. I once had a training partner that did 10,000 in a row....was one of the most amazing things I've ever seen.

For the sprinting aspect, see if there are chains or bands available at the gym you train at. If not, chains are pretty expensive, but bands are affordable.
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Old February 8th, 2014, 01:04 AM   #18
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Google "squats and milk." Classic lifting routine... I think it might even be Jack LaLanne if my memory serves me... This is no BS wives tale. This is serious lifting and get big basics.

Thanks Malcom!

Pre-exhaustion is a valuable addition to any lifting plan. In some ways, the basic logic of working largest/most muscle groups first and smaller/fewest last is built on the notion. Squat first, always your "biggest" lift first. I will split squat after back squats followed by single leg press, just on negatives concentrating on the range of motion that brings the knee closest to the chest. Then calf raises.
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Old February 8th, 2014, 02:51 AM   #19
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Google "squats and milk." Classic lifting routine... I think it might even be Jack LaLanne if my memory serves me... This is no BS wives tale. This is serious lifting and get big basics.

Thanks Malcom!

Pre-exhaustion is a valuable addition to any lifting plan. In some ways, the basic logic of working largest/most muscle groups first and smaller/fewest last is built on the notion. Squat first, always your "biggest" lift first. I will split squat after back squats followed by single leg press, just on negatives concentrating on the range of motion that brings the knee closest to the chest. Then calf raises.
Agreed, my point was more not exhausting the smaller muscles by doing extensions BEFORE squating, after makes sense.

Lately I have been avoiding anything not standing, so I am always working the core, presses, pulls, squats, curls, deads, rows, shrugs with dumbells and barbells, good for a change, I will go back to a more conventional routine/split soon, always change it around every 3 months or so just to keep it interesting at this point.
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Old February 8th, 2014, 03:15 AM   #20
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Google "squats and milk." Classic lifting routine... I think it might even be Jack LaLanne if my memory serves me... This is no BS wives tale. This is serious lifting and get big basics.

Thanks Malcom!

Pre-exhaustion is a valuable addition to any lifting plan. In some ways, the basic logic of working largest/most muscle groups first and smaller/fewest last is built on the notion. Squat first, always your "biggest" lift first. I will split squat after back squats followed by single leg press, just on negatives concentrating on the range of motion that brings the knee closest to the chest. Then calf raises.
Yeah I recommended it to a guy on the camaro forum. Complaining about working out, not being able to put on muscle mass, etc etc. I asked him how bad did he want it? He said extremely...

So I told him....squat 3 times a week doing 3, 20 rep sets...and to go up in weight every workout even if it was only 5lbs and to drink a gallon of milk a day.....Told him go for 8 weeks...and don't skip, don't quit, don't make excuses. Squatting for 20 reps is 90% mental...In 8 short weeks he put on 23lbs. He started at about 175lbs but the guy was 6'2". He wasn't pushing hard enough in the weight room to get his body to release any hormones...well 20 rep squat routines cure that
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