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Old December 17th, 2016, 07:28 PM   #1
Miss Behaved
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Default Wheels, is this testing a good plan, or wasted money and effort?

I'm on a set of outdoor 65mm X 44mm soft wheels. I need to purchase derby wheels but I want to conduct some tests first. (Geez, she's over analytical! ")

First: purchase a very cheap analog durameter, for consistency and comparing oranges to oranges.

Choice A: Beg and borrow all kinds, sizes, harnesses of wheels to test.

Choice B: Scoop up a bunch of cheap closeout wheels currently offered. I realize cheap wheels are just that, cheap! The only plus is testing with a durameter. What I am more concerned about is diameter and widths I can learn to skate on.

After the facts and a quality wheel choice from my data, I would have fresh meat lender wheels or donations to other skaters.

Is this all being way too obsessive? Which plan is better? Why? This is my nature anyway. Thanks for your guidance or misguidance.
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Old December 17th, 2016, 09:50 PM   #2
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Choice A is going to be your best bet. I would pass on cheap wheels altogether. 92/95A Bont Royal Assassins would make excellent indoor derby wheels but are on the upper end of the price spectrum.
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Old December 17th, 2016, 10:09 PM   #3
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Default Of course Urethane quality matters BUT

Diameter, in itself, isn't an aspect that defines speed at all. The only thing that it will define is clearances.

Here's some basics, which will likely lead to a lot of questions.

Wider wheels do not always have more grip than a narrower wheel
Harder wheels do not always have less grip than a softer wheel
Taller wheels are not always faster than shorter wheels

Hub quality matters ALOT. This is what lets the bearings roll effortlessly. Without good hub alignments bearings will constantly be fighting each other and causing drag.


It gets weirder! lol
2 identically sized wheels (height / width) can have VASTLY different handling characteristics(not grip, I am speaking of how they carve/turn). This depends on how the hub is made vs how the urethane is cast around it. The shape of the outer edge, commonly known as the "lip" can change the way a wheel acts in a turn.

The easiest example is a Rollerbones Turbo which is 62x38 Vs a Sure Grip Zombie Mid also 62x38 in size.

The rollerbones turbos have a lip that is not reinforced by the hub. This allows the wheel to flex a bit on the edge. Since the urethane can deform easier on the edge where it is not reinforced the wheel will have better turning capabilities.

The SG Zombie Mid is a more square cut edge, and has a full width aluminum hub under the urethane that run all the way to the edge. since it cannot deform as easily, this wheel will turn slower than the RBT.


Wheel hardness's can also cause variances in how a wheel will behave. Softer wheels will deflect more, and can increase turning potential if you learn how to load up weight on them. essentially they can behave like a tire with less air in it. Example? Air up one side of your car to 44 PSI in the tires, and the other to 28 PSI, the car will likely pull to the side with the lower pressure. 1 , due to more friction from the softer tire(less air) and 2 because the less air means it will deform easier under load(weight), and not be as tall as the other side.


Between the 2 wheels mentioned above, the RBT will be more agile, but have slightly less top speed, the zombie will have more top speed but be slightly less agile. Both are quality wheels, However there are better wheels than those 2.
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Old December 17th, 2016, 11:16 PM   #4
the california kid
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Default Mort is telling is just how it it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Diameter, in itself, isn't an aspect that defines speed at all. The only thing that it will define is clearances.

Here's some basics, which will likely lead to a lot of questions.

Wider wheels do not always have more grip than a narrower wheel
Harder wheels do not always have less grip than a softer wheel
Taller wheels are not always faster than shorter wheels

Hub quality matters ALOT. This is what lets the bearings roll effortlessly. Without good hub alignments bearings will constantly be fighting each other and causing drag.


It gets weirder! lol
2 identically sized wheels (height / width) can have VASTLY different handling characteristics(not grip, I am speaking of how they carve/turn). This depends on how the hub is made vs how the urethane is cast around it. The shape of the outer edge, commonly known as the "lip" can change the way a wheel acts in a turn.

The easiest example is a Rollerbones Turbo which is 62x38 Vs a Sure Grip Zombie Mid also 62x38 in size.

The rollerbones turbos have a lip that is not reinforced by the hub. This allows the wheel to flex a bit on the edge. Since the urethane can deform easier on the edge where it is not reinforced the wheel will have better turning capabilities.

The SG Zombie Mid is a more square cut edge, and has a full width aluminum hub under the urethane that run all the way to the edge. since it cannot deform as easily, this wheel will turn slower than the RBT.


Wheel hardness's can also cause variances in how a wheel will behave. Softer wheels will deflect more, and can increase turning potential if you learn how to load up weight on them. essentially they can behave like a tire with less air in it. Example? Air up one side of your car to 44 PSI in the tires, and the other to 28 PSI, the car will likely pull to the side with the lower pressure. 1 , due to more friction from the softer tire(less air) and 2 because the less air means it will deform easier under load(weight), and not be as tall as the other side.


Between the 2 wheels mentioned above, the RBT will be more agile, but have slightly less top speed, the zombie will have more top speed but be slightly less agile. Both are quality wheels, However there are better wheels than those 2.
And the truth is I would find it hard to say it better myself. Mort's advice is right on
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Old December 18th, 2016, 12:46 AM   #5
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Thanks for the info Mort - I have both the mentioned wheels, and couldn't put my finger on the different feel until you described it. Kudos.
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Old December 18th, 2016, 04:18 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Behaved View Post
I'm on a set of outdoor 65mm X 44mm soft wheels. I need to purchase derby wheels but I want to conduct some tests first. (Geez, she's over analytical! ")

First: purchase a very cheap analog durameter, for consistency and comparing oranges to oranges.

Choice A: Beg and borrow all kinds, sizes, harnesses of wheels to test.

Choice B: Scoop up a bunch of cheap closeout wheels currently offered. I realize cheap wheels are just that, cheap! The only plus is testing with a durameter. What I am more concerned about is diameter and widths I can learn to skate on.

After the facts and a quality wheel choice from my data, I would have fresh meat lender wheels or donations to other skaters.

Is this all being way too obsessive? Which plan is better? Why? This is my nature anyway. Thanks for your guidance or misguidance.
Been there done it all, tested for a couple of years. Set yourself some guidelines. Choice A
1. Metal hubbed wheels roll better so tests should be with metal hubbed wheels.
2. Urethanes are different from every manufacturer. And they grip differently too. Two wheels from different manufacturers with the same hardness will grip and feel differently. Test any wheel for loose floors and tight floors.
3. Hardness help grip but that is not all there is to it. The chemical makeup will determine on the floor whether on not they will work for you.
4. Suspension firmness will affect all of the above. So be prepared to make changes and loosen up your trucks to investigate limits of the wheels and see it there are positive results from the testing.
5. Tight trucks will limit your testing, the wheels will be testing your talent.
6. Pigment(color) modifies traction properties. The more pigment, the less grip. Some color will require lots of pigment to make a wheel look right, some colors require less pigment. Too much pigment and the chemical makeup is modified so much the wheels get harder and looser(saw this on a set of custom ordered wheels).
7. You will find out that you need a soft "go to" wheel for looser floors.
8. You will find that it takes 4 sets of wheels minimum to get it all done, indoors only.
9. Durometers only tell you very limited information, useful but not much.

There is more but if you are not afraid to loosen up your suspension, you will find out a lot about your wheels that you never knew. Wheels can make or break a good solid skate setup. Don't bother with cheap wheels unless you are going to trash them at an outdoor course track or something like that.

From my experience,
#1 Above all skate wheels on the planet, Corey Scott's. Naturals
#2 Faster Strides, or White Shamans, Good medium to grippy floors.
#3 Green Shamans, for medium to loose floors.
#4 Faster Grips, for loose floors.

None of the above wheels i mentioned is used much for derby though, they are too wide. Also derby requires you to slide somewhat(V plows). Anyway happy hunting.
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Old December 18th, 2016, 06:16 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
From my experience,
#1 Above all skate wheels on the planet, Corey Scott's. Naturals
#2 Faster Strides, or White Shamans, Good medium to grippy floors.
#3 Green Shamans, for medium to loose floors.
#4 Faster Grips, for loose floors.

None of the above wheels i mentioned is used much for derby though, they are too wide. Also derby requires you to slide somewhat(V plows). Anyway happy hunting.
I've seen some derby ladies on the Royal Assassins. But, I haven't technically seen any on Scott's naturals. The 95A RAs have just a perfect amount of slide on a wood floor. On tight floors, you can make them slide, but more force is required.
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Old December 18th, 2016, 01:10 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixton View Post
I've seen some derby ladies on the Royal Assassins. But, I haven't technically seen any on Scott's naturals. The 95A RAs have just a perfect amount of slide on a wood floor. On tight floors, you can make them slide, but more force is required.
Looking back, I should have said some people might use these wheels in derby but it would be a low percentage. The perfect amount of slide is the goal in derby. In speed and slicing through traffic, my list above reflects traction with a balance of speed. The goals are a bit different.
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Old December 18th, 2016, 02:18 PM   #9
Miss Behaved
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Wow! The brain food here is fabulous! Now this is an engineering class I can stay awake in!

I as you know, just started on here, I'm not a shy girl by any means. I was a bit concerned how well received some of my more "what if" questions would be. You have given me that most important answer. Thank you all, while you all can continue talking, I will apply this to my skates and skating. When I digest all this, I will report back or pester with more specific questions. Thanks all again, you're amazing. Miss Bee
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Old December 18th, 2016, 02:33 PM   #10
fierocious1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Behaved View Post
Wow! The brain food here is fabulous! Now this is an engineering class I can stay awake in!

I as you know, just started on here, I'm not a shy girl by any means. I was a bit concerned how well received some of my more "what if" questions would be. You have given me that most important answer. Thank you all, while you all can continue talking, I will apply this to my skates and skating. When I digest all this, I will report back or pester with more specific questions. Thanks all again, you're amazing. Miss Bee
Awwww.... Bring it!

Edit: can't make the pics rotate correctly after upload but anyway. Miss Behaved, I have sketched up a new test rig after thinking about the stuff in this thread.


May be a while before getting to it but at least it is on paper... everyone can guess what the components are LOL...

Last edited by fierocious1; December 18th, 2016 at 03:36 PM.
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Old December 20th, 2016, 05:05 AM   #11
Miss Behaved
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
Awwww.... Bring it!

Edit: can't make the pics rotate correctly after upload but anyway. Miss Behaved, I have sketched up a new test rig after thinking about the stuff in this thread.


May be a while before getting to it but at least it is on paper... everyone can guess what the components are LOL...
I would like to see the test idea? After my kids get Christmas, I think Santa will bring me that $18 analog durameter. I will post a note at the warehouse track bulletin board for used examples to borrow for the tests. I am interested in skating on narrow wheels, I never have. I certainly don't like wheel clipping.

If the cheopo durameter isn't complete junk and the test is a flop, I can afford to gift it to a gearhead guy that races. Thanks again all, Merry Christmas.
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