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Old September 19th, 2016, 01:29 PM   #1
Derrick
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Default skating and you knees

So lately I have seen a lot of knee trouble and skating. Not injury; overuse. I'd like to avoid this eventuality. So, if anyone has information on avoiding this let me know.

I know one young rink rat, the fastest member of the speed team, who had to quit for 6 weeks due to, " overuse". That was the doctors diagnosis. She skated a lot as she was related to the rink owners and it was all free for her. She no longer skates at all.

Another adult night shuffle skater, prolly about 45, is now wearing a stretchy knee brace. I feel like the brace is good to keep the knee in proper position, but he was using it for support. Support of what? bad form? Bad idea.

So my take (pure speculation): Skating art, speed or shuffle is not hard on your knees. If done properly. Well perhaps jumping is, but that's another story.

That's why I never go all out because I don't do it properly. In fact I've been trying to get the lean to count for speed and minimize pushing, especially with the knees. According to what I read in the manual that Larry shared is you can get 85% of your speed from lean, and only 15% should be from push. I'm as fast as I ever was with minimal effort. I'm not quite keeping up with the fastest shufflers, but then again, I never was. And I'm not sure this method will ever be quite as fast a shufflers, but it sure is easy on the knees.

Speed; I know nothing about. But they do appear to be bending at the knees somewhat. That may be hard on your knees. So is there a proper speed stance that avoids this?
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Old September 19th, 2016, 02:11 PM   #2
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First of all, overuse injuries occur due to inflammation in tendons and sometimes ligaments, joints, etc. These tissues take much longer than regular muscle to heal which is why it can be confusing to know when you are actually ready to begin activity again. You MUST take a break and let the inflammation die down and allow the tissues to heal. This process can take weeks to heal fully. If you are unwilling to wait for very long, just take 1 or 2 weeks off and come back slowly. Skate once or twice a week and focus on good form and do not exaggerate your movements.

I know it's frustrating, I had tennis elbow in high school because we would play for 3 or 4 hours or more every single day in 100+ degree Texas summers, it didn't matter, we were out there. It can develop through poor form but improving your form will not allow the injury to heal without rest. And yes, overuse injuries are just that. Injuries. You have to treat them as such or be prepared to suffer the consequences (chronic pain and inflammation, lack of range of motion, etc).
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Old September 20th, 2016, 12:35 AM   #3
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For safety, I wear knee pads under my trousers. When I was younger, I could fall on my knees 10 times during the week and not be bothered, now one fall may leave me swollen for 3 weeks.
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Old September 20th, 2016, 08:36 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixton View Post
First of all, overuse injuries occur due to inflammation in tendons and sometimes ligaments, joints, etc. These tissues take much longer than regular muscle to heal which is why it can be confusing to know when you are actually ready to begin activity again. You MUST take a break and let the inflammation die down and allow the tissues to heal. This process can take weeks to heal fully. If you are unwilling to wait for very long, just take 1 or 2 weeks off and come back slowly. Skate once or twice a week and focus on good form and do not exaggerate your movements.

I know it's frustrating, I had tennis elbow in high school because we would play for 3 or 4 hours or more every single day in 100+ degree Texas summers, it didn't matter, we were out there. It can develop through poor form but improving your form will not allow the injury to heal without rest. And yes, overuse injuries are just that. Injuries. You have to treat them as such or be prepared to suffer the consequences (chronic pain and inflammation, lack of range of motion, etc).
Yes, the inflammation is the problem, but the cause is often NOT strictly overuse. Rather, it is the body having to contend with too many other inflammation related issues at the same time as the heavy joint use is also present. This progressively diminishes and delays the recovery response cycle out to longer intervals, and then the next heavy use of joint cycle begins before full recovery from the prior one is completed.

Taking anti-inflammatory dietary supplements along with joint/bone/cartilage
specific nutrients can help a lot to shorten the inflammation recovery cycle time
The list of inflammation fighting herbs and supplements at this website is fairly comprehensive:
http://www.arthritis.org/living-with...s-herbs/guide/
Short info list here, but "Read more" requires going to website page LINKED above:

Herb & Supplement Guide
Avocado Soybean Unsaponifiables (ASU)
Avocado Soybean is a natural vegetable extract made from one-third avocado oil and two-thirds soybean oil. Get information about benefits, studies and dosage. Read More >>
Black Currant Oil
Black currant seed oil contains 15 to 20 percent gamma-linolenic acid (GLA). Learn more about the origin of Black currant and recommended dosage. Read More >>
Borage Oil
Borage seed oil contains about 20 to 26 percent GLA. Learn more about the origin and dosage of borage oil. Read More >>
Boswellia
Boswellia also known as Indian Frankincense may have some everyday benefits in your daily diet. Find out what boswellia may offer. Read More >>
Bromelain
Bromelain is a group of enzymes found in pine*apple that break down protein. Find out the benefits of bromelain. Read More >>
Capsaicin
Capsaicin can be applied as a topical cream, gel or patch, capsaicin works by depleting the amount of a neurotransmitter called substance P that sends pain messages to the brain. Learn more about studies and dosage of capsaicin. Read More >>
Cat's Claw
Cat's claw is an anti-inflammatory that inhibits tumor necrosis factor (TNF), a target of powerful RA drugs. It also contains compounds that may benefit the immune system. Learn more about the benefits and recommended dosage. Read More >>
Chondroitin Sulfate
Chondrotin sulfate is known to reduce pain and inflammation, improves joint function and slows progression of osteoarthritis (OA). Learn more Chondrotin and its' benefits. Read More >>
Curcumin
Curious about curcumin? Get the basics and more on the natural supplement - also known as turmeric. Read More >>
Devil's Claw
Devil's Claw can relieve pain and inflammation and may help lower uric acid levels in people with gout. Learn more about the benefits of Devil's Claw. Read More >>
DHEA
DHEA can help control lupus flares and may help regular the immune system. Find out other information about DHEA including findings from studies and how much you should take. Read More >>
DMSO
Also known as Dimethyl Sulfoxide, can relieve pain and inflammation, improve joint mobility in osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, JRA and scleroderma, and manage amyloidosis. Learn more about about its' benefits and recommended dosage. Read More >>
Evening Primrose
Learn about the usages of Evening Primrose to help relieve arthritis symptoms. Read More >>
Fish Oil
Fish oil is reduces inflammation and morning stiffness. Treats rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, psoriasis, depression and Raynaud’s phenomenon. Important for brain function and may inhibit RA development. Learn more about the benefits of fish oil for arthritis. Read More >>
Flaxseed
You've heard a lot about flaxseed or flax. But should you add it to your diet to help relieve arthritis symptoms? Learn about the benefits of Flexseed here. Read More >>
Ginger
Thinking about supplementing your diet with ginger? Find out more about ginger as a nutritional supplement. Read More >>
Ginkgo
Lots of people supplement their diets with ginkgo (ginkgo biloba), but is it for you? Read more about the nutritional supplement and its' benefits. Read More >>
GLA GROUP
-Gamma-Linolenic Acid (GLA) lessens joint pain, stiffness and swelling associated with rheumatoid arthritis (RA) and also eases symptoms of Raynaud’s phenomenon and Sjögren’s syndromes. Find out more about what Gamma-Linolenic Acid can do.. Read More >>
Glucosamine
Glucosamine slows deterioration of cartilage, relieves osteoarthritis (OA) pain and improves joint mobility. Find out more about the benefits of glucosamine for arthritis related symptoms. Read More >>
Green-lipped Mussel
The New Zealand mussels are rich in omega-3 fatty acids and may have the same anti-inflammatory effects as fish oil. Learn more about Green-lipped Mussel extract. Read More >>
Indian Frankincense
It sounds exotic but Indian Frankincense may have some everyday benefits in your daily diet. Find out what this frankincense supplement may offer for arthritis relief. Read More >>
Melatonin
Thinking about taking melatonin to help with sleep problems? Read more about the hormone, produced by the pineal gland in the brain. Read More >>
MSM
MSM is an organic sulfur compound that is claimed to reduce pain and inflammation. Read more for how MSM can help with your arthritis symptoms. Read More >>
Pine Bark
Pycnogenol (Pine Bark) contains procyandin, a powerful antioxidant, and also seems to inhibit pro-inflammatory enzymes, including COX 1 and COX 2. Read on to discover more about Pine Bark and its' benefits. Read More >>
Rose Hips
Rose Hips powder – a rich source of vitamin C – appears to decrease inflammation by inhibiting production of inflammatory proteins and enzymes. Read about studies on Rose Hips, dosage and more. Read More >>
Sam-e
Sam-E has been known to treat pain, stiffness and joint swelling; improve mobility; rebuild cartilage and ease symptoms of osteoarthritis (OA), fibromyalgia, bursitis, tendinitis, chronic low back pain and depression. Find out if Sam-E could benefit you. Read More >>
St. John's Wort
St. John's Wort has been to known to act as an antidepressant drug and reduce inflammation and pain. Read about the benefits, dosage and studies of St. John's Wort. Read More >>
Stinging Nettle
Stinging Nettle is a natural supplement that reduces inflammation, aches and pains of osteoarthritis. Find out if Stinging Nettle could benefit you. Read More >>
Thunder God Vine
Thunder God Vine is a natural extract that reduces pain and inflammation and treats symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis, lupus and other auto*immune diseases. Read about its' benefits, dosage and more. Read More >>
Turmeric
Tumeric has more uses than just cooking. Tumeric also reduces pain, inflammation and stiffness related to rheumatoid arthritis (RA) and osteoarthritis (OA). Learn more about the benefits and uses of Tumeric. Read More >>
Valerian
Valerian is claimed to treat insomnia and help ease pain and also has antispasmodic and sedative effects. Learn about the uses and benefits of Valerian. Read More >>

-Armadillo
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Old September 20th, 2016, 04:07 PM   #5
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Are the preventative measures such as cross-training and the 10% rule effective?
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Old September 20th, 2016, 11:15 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Yes, the inflammation is the problem, but the cause is often NOT strictly overuse. Rather, it is the body having to contend with too many other inflammation related issues at the same time as the heavy joint use is also present. This progressively diminishes and delays the recovery response cycle out to longer intervals, and then the next heavy use of joint cycle begins before full recovery from the prior one is completed.

-Armadillo
Yep, I agree 100%.

The fact remains that the only way to heal is to rest. You can speed the recovery by eating a healthier diet: green smoothies, salads, fish, seeds, whole grains, fruits, vegetables, whole when possible, raw when possible, organic when possible. And get plenty of sleep.

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Are the preventative measures such as cross-training and the 10% rule effective?
Cross training is important for any serious athlete of any type. Overuse injuries will happen in any sport that requires repetitive actions. Therefore, I would highly recommend taking up a secondary sport/hobby. I prefer my cross training activities to work multiple systems (i.e. muscular, cardiovascular, coordination, even mental). I also want it to be fun, so I choose things like trail running for the endurance, leg strength, and foot coordination, and indoor rock climbing for the upper body/core strength, flexibility, and finesse.

RICE also applies (Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation) for any type of musculoskeletal injury.

Regular stretching can also increase your resistance to overuse injuries and help you recover faster.

Using a foam roller around the affected areas will promote better circulation in the region and can help reduce inflammation.

As for the 10% rule, that's more for endurance athletes. Unless you are increasing your duration, distance, or intensity, it doesn't really apply.
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Old October 9th, 2016, 05:11 AM   #7
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For me it went the other way. Knee trouble I had for years stopped some time after taking up skating.

Knee pain can come from over use, more so when newer skaters do to much to soon. Made worse by bad form.
As others have said recovery/rest, stretching and cross training can all help.

Speed; I know nothing about. But they do appear to be bending at the knees somewhat. That may be hard on your knees. So is there a proper speed stance that avoids this?
A proper speed stance does have a lot of knee bend, best is about 90 degrees. If you want to try it, keeping the body up right start bending the knees, as you go lower you upper body will bend forward to keep your balance. If you feel your rib cage just starting to hit your thighs you are in great form. If you can skate like this, even better, few can hold it.
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Old October 9th, 2016, 12:51 PM   #8
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A proper speed stance does have a lot of knee bend, best is about 90 degrees. If you want to try it, keeping the body up right start bending the knees, as you go lower you upper body will bend forward to keep your balance. If you feel your rib cage just starting to hit your thighs you are in great form. If you can skate like this, even better, few can hold it.

That's a lot of knee bend. If I'm entering an spin or besti squat
I bend low. But that's briefly. Mostly, I only bend enough to shock asorb. I've been invited to join speed but I'm still a bit weary about how it will affect my knees.
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Old October 9th, 2016, 01:49 PM   #9
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Read Trixtons post again, its good.

The knees aren't like the eyes, the knees are where the muscles of the upper legs and lower legs connect, they are tendon and ligament adhered to bone, they are only reacting to overuse, the muscles connected are restricted and need to heal, and it takes time to build up muscles, do it to fast and you have tendonitis, which is knee pain.
I suggest a foam roller or better, the triggerpoint from eastern mt sports, roll before exercise and again after.
Deadening the pain and continuing the activity isn't going to go well, properly hydrating and nutritionally eating (no sugar) will lessen recovery time.
It's not the speed skating doing damage to knees, it's the overuse, moderate, hydrate, repete
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Old October 9th, 2016, 03:30 PM   #10
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That's a lot of knee bend. If I'm entering an spin or besti squat
I bend low. But that's briefly. Mostly, I only bend enough to shock asorb. I've been invited to join speed but I'm still a bit weary about how it will affect my knees.
Not to worry, newer skaters rarely get that low and never hold it. In fact most don't. If you're having a lot of pain now work on getting it to heal before you try to get to low. Then you can work up to it. Off skate we do a lot of squats, wall sits, jump rope etc. And stretching. One to try (when you're in shape) is stand about one arms length from the wall feet close together, bend down and lean until your left shoulder is on the wall. This also helps getting the skates on the left edges and lets you feel the grip of the wheels.
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Old October 10th, 2016, 08:13 AM   #11
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Smile Derrick thank you for this post...Larry O

Dear Derrick,

This very problem, knee soreness has been starting to bother me. I was wondering why? In my case I have been doing a lot of concentrated skating.

Very few people have access to a skating rink where I am the only one practicing. I don't even attend sessions any more because the skating is sporadic for the dances I am practicing and the jumps and spins I am skating during a skating session. When I skate I usually skate by myself for 2-3 hours a day in the skating rink by myself. The Fountain Valley Skating Rink is available for "Club Skaters" when ever the rink in not giving a private party or roller skating session.

For myself, I have found plenty of sleep helps. I have been pounding my body with vitamins many of the ones described on this blog. I have also been taking a lot of hot showers which seem to heal the knee joints and I have taken a lot of walks to loosen up those knee muscles.

But I will say this my knees get sore and sometime I just have to rest 1-2 days between practices.

Sincerely,

Larry O


P.S,. I have also been trying to eat a lot of good foods, vegetables, fruits and such and protein drinks. Everything seems to help but my right knee does get sore and I'm watching it and nurturing it. I don't want to hurt it if at all possible. I'm 61 years old and I'm really too old to be jumping and spinning, but even the dance makes my right knee get sore. My right knee is usually never sore while practicing, only after practicing, about a 15-20 minutes after practice it starts to get sore and I have to baby it while I''m walking to the car and for the next 8 hours, at least. It does recover, but to be completely healed takes at least one day if not two to become normal again with no aches.
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Old October 10th, 2016, 12:34 PM   #12
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I don't currently have knee pain, I just talked to a couple guys who wore support. I want to skate until I'm 112, so I want to mwke sure I avoid that fate.

Spins don't hurt ny knees and my jump just a waltz-jump. I feel it's nicely done, but it's more of a little dance step than practice for an axel.

So, jury is still out on whether to try a little speed. It will never be my passion, but I like knowing w bit about all the forms of skating.
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Old October 10th, 2016, 05:20 PM   #13
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My right knee is usually never sore while practicing, only after practicing, about a 15-20 minutes after practice it starts to get sore and I have to baby it while I''m walking to the car and for the next 8 hours, at least. It does recover, but to be completely healed takes at least one day if not two to become normal again with no aches.
Thanks for posting your story. I wanted to point out that your knee is not completely healed when the aching stops. That just means the inflammation has lessened because the aggravating stimulus has stopped sufficiently long enough for your body to flush the contaminants. You may be unable to tell when you are fully healed. It can take 2-6+ weeks to fully heal.

If the problem persists after many weeks of little or no activity, it may be a chronic issue where the damage is irreparable. You might have to supplement with a light weight bearing regimen, stretching, or surgery depending on the severity.

P.S. With tendon injuries, it is common for the pain to begin once the muscles cool down after a workout. If this happens, it is likely that the problem existed before the routine and that you have simply reaggravated your injury.
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Old October 25th, 2016, 09:40 AM   #14
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Smile Trixton you are probably right about aggravating old injuries.

But I would like to say I have bought about 500 dollars worth of vitamins and I take them 3 times a day and my knee soreness seems to have gone almost all away...lol!

I have also retired so I can sleep for hours after a skating practice.

The good thing is my knee sorness is drastically reduced.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani
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Old October 25th, 2016, 02:32 PM   #15
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But I would like to say I have bought about 500 dollars worth of vitamins and I take them 3 times a day and my knee soreness seems to have gone almost all away...lol!

I have also retired so I can sleep for hours after a skating practice.

The good thing is my knee sorness is drastically reduced.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani
Taking vitamins and minerals for deficiencies can help greatly, I try to get everything I can from the foods that I eat and fill in the gaps with supplements.

You must be doing something right if your knee is doing better
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Old October 25th, 2016, 10:00 PM   #16
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So lately I have seen a lot of knee trouble and skating. Not injury; overuse. I'd like to avoid this eventuality. So, if anyone has information on avoiding this let me know. o - o
The short of this is to do Off Skating Knee and Hip and Ankle exercises that strengthen your knee area. Most of us including me do not do it, till after a bad injury. Meniscus Tear for me. Had I been doing regular knee and hip exercises I would never have torn my meniscus.

I had a back fall too that was a killer, yet that is a different story

And like all things in exercise watch your routine so you do not put days in a row of stress from skating. Make some days a routine change day and rest.

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
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Old October 28th, 2016, 04:48 AM   #17
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...I can sleep for hours after a skating practice.
Larry Otani
This rings true for me. Not just a sleep, but taking a coffee break during a skate session to give my knees a short rest.
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Old October 28th, 2016, 06:20 AM   #18
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But I would like to say I have bought about 500 dollars worth of vitamins and I take them 3 times a day and my knee soreness seems to have gone almost all away...lol!

I have also retired so I can sleep for hours after a skating practice.

The good thing is my knee sorness is drastically reduced.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani


I can also confirm that after seeing my post skating sessions soreness level starting to increase exponentially a couple years ago, I was becoming resigned to the possibility that i might have to give up skating entirely.

Then I got seriously engaged with researching health related issues and joint pain in particular. I came to learn a lot of important things related to how the body DOES -AND- DOESN'T deal with stress from all sources → physical, mental, emotional, environmental (pollutants, toxins ...); as well as why it has breakdowns in its ability to handle stress.

Within a short time, like you, after engaging in a regime of diet improvement, vitamins, minerals, and nutritional supplements to the tune of several hundred dollars all my skating related sorness issues vanished.

The three primary factors we must address are nutritional deficiencies, toxin accumulations, and suppressed or mistakenly exaggerated activity immune systems (autoimmune responses).

The overuse of antibiotics, and overconsumption of sugar and carbs in the S.A.D, (standard American diet) has let to millions of people having totally disrupted and unhealthy bioflora compositions in their G-I tracts, which starts in the oral cavity.

Our immune systems function in a manner that relies on the synergy interactions between our "biomes" (the 10 trillion bacteria living IN and ON our bodies) the the other processes happening within our bodies. The effectiveness of our immune system functions are 60-80% codependent on the optimum functioning status of our biome.

Sugar needs to be eliminated from our diets it is an addictive, literally poisonous, substance, with zero (actually NEGATIVE) nutritional value. Most people are starved of the proper essential fatty acids. Too much of the fats in our S.A.D. are bad vegetable oil sourced and most people have horrible ratios of Omega 6 to Omega 3 fatty acids consumption. To many of the calories most people consume are carb sourced, and those carbs are also married to bad quality vegetable fats as well, with almost all the snack foods consumed. Corporate produced foods and drugs are literally killing us, and destroying our quality of live on the way to the grave as well.

So many people have "leaky gut" syndrome, where their G-I tract biome is in such terrible shape and the intestinal wall is leaking things into the bloodstream that should not be there.

One of these is Gluten, which only became a significant presence in wheat in the 1980's after a massive worldwide effort to improve the protein content of wheat by cross breeding. The more things getting into the bloodstream that do not belong there, the more and more hyped and disturbed out immune systems become, and this can lead to it attacking our own tissues in our joints (rheumatoid arthritis).

Earlier in the thread I listed a lot of dietary supplements that can clear up joint pain issues. There are now many products that combine into one pill anywhere from 8 to 16 of these various substances into a single pill. Many of these are very effective products with rapid improvement possible within a few days to a few weeks.

In addition, I also suggest that people stare taking a potent probiotic supplement to restore their biome back to being a healthful ecosystem that promotes proper immune system functioning.

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Old October 29th, 2016, 03:18 AM   #19
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Smile Stiff boots caused knee sorness.

I recently bought some new skates. In fact, I bought two pairs. The second pair and boots are being mounted, but I got my first pair back yesterday.

1) They are Roll Line Dance plates with Edea Ice Fly boots. Incredible action in the Dance Plates almost made me fall on my butt, but also the boots allow enormous movement at the ankles.

2) My old skates Synder Imperials, With Donald Jackson boots made for doing quadruple jumps do not allow for any ankle movement. All the movements from leans and jumps and spins must come from the knee joint, hence why I was getting sore at the right knee from several hours of concentrated practice at the rink. Usually I'm the only one practicing many of the times...lol!

3) The Edea Fly boots allow so much movement at the ankle, that today I felt very little soreness after skating 4 hours.

4) I will not use my new skates for freestyle. Too much movement in the ankle can cause a sprain if I get off axis.

5) My second pair of skates being mounted are Roll Line Energy plates with a Edea Concerto boots.

Thanks for listening.

Larry O

I'm actually thinking of buying a third pair of skates for Figures... the Roll Line Ring..lol! Think I have too many skates? Nope just the average.
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Old October 29th, 2016, 03:09 PM   #20
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2) My old skates Synder Imperials, With Donald Jackson boots made for doing quadruple jumps do not allow for any ankle movement. All the movements from leans and jumps and spins must come from the knee joint, hence why I was getting sore at the right knee from several hours of concentrated practice at the rink. Usually I'm the only one practicing many of the times...lol!
Ouch, sounds like a pair of inlines. Quads require quite a bit of ankle articulation to function properly IMO.

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Think I have too many skates? Nope just the average.
Par for the course around here lol
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