SG Avenger Skate/Plate Tuning

[Juice_]

Hello All,

I've read many similar threads here on the forum regarding SG Avengers and I'm having trouble make sense of all of it. I'm gonna spit out some basics here to hopefully keep it short.

I'm a derby skater, primarily a jammer. I'm 5'1 and about 125 lbs. For two years, I skated on basic Sure Grip Rebels with a Probe plate. I changed those up eventually too better bearings and purple cushions and loosened the trucks. And was using 88a Heartless wheels (loved these suckers). We skate on a mix of floors, Mondays its super sticky sport court and on Thursday it is polished concrete.

I upgraded to a new sure grip boot (which I love) and a sport mounted SG Avenger plate with purple cushions, trucks tighten all the way down and same wheels. I could immediately tell these plates were different but not in a bad way, just different. My issue is - I cannot for the life of me plow stop anymore. I cannot get chatter. I just glid and slide and go and never stop.

Is this a technique issue? I have a feeling it is due to the fact that the axle is now located in a different place along my foot.

Any advice?

[Shazzamm1971]

If your using SG Purple cushions at your weight your doing it all wrong. Work your way from Purple to yellow to BLUE with progressively looser action. Actually just go get the blues and start there with preload (cranked down). Make sure you adjust the pivot pin with each change of the kingpin nut preload. Should just be seated with no slop and not jacking the truck hanger either. Find the sweet spot. I use an 81 duro floor side and a 85 duro cushion skate side and weigh 210Lbs. My daughter is closer to your weight at 85lbs and with the blue SG cushions in she prefers the blues with a half turn on the kingpin nut. She has only been running this plate for a week and absolutely rocks it.
Your setup with the "purples with adjuster cranked down" is so wrong. Whoever set up you skates or gave you the advice needs to back away from the wrench.

[Juice_]

Originally Posted by Shazzamm1971

Make sure you adjust the pivot pin with each change of the kingpin nut preload. Should just be seated with no slop and not jacking the truck hanger either.

Can you explain this more clearly? Maybe I'll go ask YouTube, I'm a pretty visual person anyway.

[Armadillo]

In a nutshell, this is your problem:
Your 88A wheels are too soft for the improved action of the Avenger plate, which keeps the wheels in better contact with the floor for their full width as you lean the plate.

The 88A wheels have too large a contact patch & grip for your light weight, unless they tip up off the floor some, which the Avenger design minimizes.

Yes, going softer on cushions is smart, but won't help unless you also, more importantly, go firmer on the wheel duro.

The Avenger plates should still maintain adequate grip for you using decent wheels in the low 90's duro range, and even with their keeping wheels down on floor more, they should be able to break free from the floor enough to do the plow stops with some chatter.

-Armadillo

[Juice_]

Originally Posted by Armadillo

In a nutshell, this is your problem:
Your 88A wheels are too soft for the improved action of the Avenger plate, which keeps the wheels in better contact with the floor for their full width as you lean the plate.

The 88A wheels have too large a contact patch & grip for your light weight, unless they tip up off the floor some, which the Avenger design minimizes.

Yes, going softer on cushions is smart, but won't help unless you also, more importantly, go firmer on the wheel duro.

The Avenger plates should still maintain adequate grip for you using decent wheels in the low 90's duro range, and even with their keeping wheels down on floor more, they should be able to break free from the floor enough to do the plow stops with some chatter.

-Armadillo

I have some yellow cushions, will switch those out.

In some ways it just feels counter-intuitive to use harder (i.e. slicker) wheels when all I'm already doing is sliding during my plows, no?

I will take the suggestion though and borrow some wheels from a friend and go skate around tonight to see how it feels.

[Armadillo]

Originally Posted by Juice_

I have some yellow cushions, will switch those out.

In some ways it just feels counter-intuitive to use harder (i.e. slicker) wheels when all I'm already doing is sliding during my plows, no?

I will take the suggestion though and borrow some wheels from a friend and go skate around tonight to see how it feels.

Yes, I misread that OP, and harder will likely slide more.
If wheels are sliding without slowing you, then wheels obviously aren't gripping, and harder will likely grip less. Are there any grooves left in the 88A wheels? 88A wheels should not lose ALL all their plow stopping grip from just the plate swap. How many other wheel sets have you tried on the new plates?

Sometimes if the wheel contact patch is too large, the wheel can ride up on top of the floor's dirt/dust breaking grip. On a dusty floor, a firmer wheel with fresh grooves can often plow stop better than a soft wheel with no grooves.
The grooves accept the dirt and keep the urethane from being pried up off the floor by dirt/dust.

How dirty are the 88A wheels and how dirty/dusty is the is the floor?
Do 88A wheels slide out on turns too, with the Advantage plates, when you are going fast?
Dusty floors neutralize grip for both firm and soft wheels, especially when grooves are shallow or missing.

-Armadillo

[Mort]

Aside from suspensions....



Nuts on the axle too thight can cause a "no chatter" as stops or slides are performed.

I had a pair of RBT'S set up with glued in bearings, spacers etc. Everything was solid, wheels would freespin perfectly, but the hockey stop noise could not be made. Same thing with a pair of Faster grips. Bearings werent glued in but they had spacers and were locked down on the axle. Freespin was perfect as well, no hockey stop noise. Sure grip zombies MAX 89A spacer setup, locked down wheels, same thing again.

Too tight of a fit sometimes makes it harder to get that vibration your seeking. Its good at providing feedback thats for sure.

[Armadillo]

Yes Mort, a good chance the Avenger axles are a tighter fit to the wheel bearings and not enough slop remains for the chatter to develop as much.

-Armadillo

[Juice_]

Originally Posted by Armadillo

Yes, I misread that OP, and harder will likely slide more.
If wheels are sliding without slowing you, then wheels obviously aren't gripping, and harder will likely grip less. Are there any grooves left in the 88A wheels? 88A wheels should not lose ALL all their plow stopping grip from just the plate swap. How many other wheel sets have you tried on the new plates?

This set of 88a's are relatively brand new, purchased 3 weeks ago. I haven't tried other wheel sets.

Sometimes if the wheel contact patch is too large, the wheel can ride up on top of the floor's dirt/dust breaking grip. On a dusty floor, a firmer wheel with fresh grooves can often plow stop better than a soft wheel with no grooves.
The grooves accept the dirt and keep the urethane from being pried up off the floor by dirt/dust.

How dirty are the 88A wheels and how dirty/dusty is the is the floor?
Do 88A wheels slide out on turns too, with the Advantage plates, when you are going fast?
Dusty floors neutralize grip for both firm and soft wheels, especially when grooves are shallow or missing.

The sport court we skate on Mondays is pretty gross, dirty, dusty. On Thursdays, the polished concrete is pretty clean.

The 88a's are slim (35mm) and slide out in turns too regardless of my set up. I can slide out on turns on my 84a's (38mm) doing speed laps. I'm very light on my feet and at speed, sliding out has always been a problem but I've learned to navigate that as I've become a more experienced skater. I've always been able to stop on a dime. Right now with the avengers, I can't seem to get that same brake.

I'm going to put my 84a's on my Avengers, and try them at practice tomorrow.

Thank you for ALL the help.

Oh and I went and made sure to correctly adjust my pivot pins.

[Armadillo]

Juice,

The polished concrete floor test with 84A will be useful, and more so if they are cleaned all the way to the bottom of the grooves (if they have any - that soft often don't), and not too much tightened on the axles either.
You have to start seeing some grip at this low duro level - maybe too much even (and too little/slow roll as well).

The Advantage plates, with their high foot platforms, are likely to be putting the the sole higher up off the floor than before, which tends to make the skates somewhat more laterally tippy, and also makes leaning over onto outer wheels' outer edges happen more easily than before. This should normally raise grip in plow stops though, even preventing slide and rolling ankles over, so something seems abnormal with your situation.

The softer yellow cushions, and eventually the blue ones could help a lot for keeping wheels down on floor with uniform distribution of pressure between them and across their full lateral rolling track width. but they will slightly worsen the plates tipiness from less available suspension stiffness for tight control of plates lean angle.
They should certainly reduce slipping in turns by maintaining a more consistent, uniform size contact patch between all the wheels, but they may not so much help with the plow stopping issues.

-Armadillo

[jackbkwikn]

Agree with the cushion change, Blue for you....
But i have to ask is the new plate in the exact same location.Meaning same size and axel location compared to the probe.

[rufusprime99]

As mentioned, you get some more grip with this plate. Chatter might be a thing of the past, unless you go to a harder wheel. Chatter is essentially the wheel losing grip. More grip with this plate = less likelihood of chatter.

As far as actually stopping, man, I can't remember a universally useful recommendation for that. You sound like an experienced skater, so, do what works. Wider is better for some, I tend to do that, or just play with it until you find what works for you. Just remember, chatter is less likely and not a good indicator of proper form with this plate.

[fierocious1]

Originally Posted by Mort

Aside from suspensions....



Nuts on the axle too thight can cause a "no chatter" as stops or slides are performed.

I had a pair of RBT'S set up with glued in bearings, spacers etc. Everything was solid, wheels would freespin perfectly, but the hockey stop noise could not be made. Same thing with a pair of Faster grips. Bearings werent glued in but they had spacers and were locked down on the axle. Freespin was perfect as well, no hockey stop noise. Sure grip zombies MAX 89A spacer setup, locked down wheels, same thing again.

Too tight of a fit sometimes makes it harder to get that vibration your seeking. Its good at providing feedback thats for sure.

I set my bearing clearance at exactly 1/2 turn out from tight, Scares the crap out of everybody in 20 ft doing a T stop.