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Outdoor Quads Discussions about outdoor quad skates and any discussion relatd to skating on quad roller skatse outdoors.

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Old May 5th, 2015, 05:52 PM   #1
Armadillo
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Default Will narrower wheel track give more speed?

I am using the theory that the more that outdoor quads can be made similar to inline skates, the faster they may roll.

Larger and narrower wheels certainly improve speed, especially on rougher rolling surfaces.
However, I now want to test whether bringing the narrowed wheels' contact patches closer together, so that their areas are shifted more near to directly below the centerline of the plate, as is the case with inlines.

This could increase the potential for ankle rollover in the push, but would it help or hinder for equalizing the lateral weight distribution between the inner and outer wheels? Also to keep the pressure across the contact patch of both wheels more laterally uniform?

PIC below illustrates the narrowest possible 100mm width for setting up the wheel track of this skate, accomplished by just flipping the Velocity Race wheels so that their side set hub's flush side is outward instead of against the truck. The normal wheel track (rear truck) is 120mm width.

This much difference should be enough to tell me whether or not this can be a good idea to help for speed, or whether it introduces other new issues that make it a bad idea overall, even if speed improves.



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Old May 5th, 2015, 06:23 PM   #2
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That's why quadlines were created. The comfort of quad boots and the faster roll of inline wheels.
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Old May 5th, 2015, 10:14 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckboucher View Post
That's why quadlines were created. The comfort of quad boots and the faster roll of inline wheels.
Quadlines are a joke:

1ST:
Using Inline wheels on a quad suspension means they initially have almost no lateral grip and then they GET FLATTED, because of the fact that a quad suspension needs a wheel contact patch that's WIDER (laterally) & SHORTER (front-to-back), and the inline wheel contact patch is the opposite of this.

A Quad setup using inline wheels will initially have excess lateral push slipping from insufficient lateral wheel grip , that ends up shredding flats onto all the inline wheel ODs.

The PIC below illustrates how much flatting can happen in only about one HOUR of quad skating on inline wheels.




2ND:
The Quadlines are way TOO WIDE on the feet, and I can't seem to ever feel comfortable doing the bow legged skating style.
Well maybe not this style, but their ROUNDED wheel profile is still a totally bogus concept.


3RD:
Unless you plan to be rolling "off road", I see no reason to go outboard with the wheels when you can go up to 90mm on wheel size with the wheels remaining under the plate. Quads work better and more naturally when the wheels stay under your feet. I also think you can skate faster than Quadlines do when the wheels remain below the plate, but I have no proof on that. Perhaps it just takes more adapting to the wider Quadlines before you reach their max speed potential, but I never liked them enough to reach that stage.

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Old May 6th, 2015, 03:47 AM   #4
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Default It's the axles.

The problem with quads and their roll is how absurdly crooked they are compared to inlines. The wider the wheels contact patch on the ground the more rolling resistance there is.

Think about it, ANY axle distortion is going to cause friction because the wheels are not rolling in the same line. This is why 8mm >7mm. And spacers are better than not having them. Inlines are supported on BOTH sides of the axle, on top of that the axle is rigidly held in place and further braced by the tightening off the axle into the frame. essentially creating a sleeve aroud the axle which reduces unwanted movement.

additionally the front and rear axles are completely independant of each other, which if not completely straight causes drag. An inline frame is very easy to keep straight in comparison. the fastest setup for quads would be an Arius style with a more rigid plate. then having that plate bonded to a CF sole. this would ensure much better uniformity of truck actions which would decrease rolling resistance.

I would use either 10mm axles with 6900 series bearings, or stay with 8 mm axles and make some wheels set up for angular contact bearings due to the way quads push. or even a combination of both using a radial bearing in specific areas where the ACB bearing would hold the axial forces and the radial bearing would do its job in the other way. of course spacers would be used and one wold want the tightest slip fits possible. ALL hardware would need to be grade 8, no nylon crap. it must be robust enough to handle cycling loads without virtually any flex.

hubs would be around 50mm and high performance plastic with the exception of a machined aluminum insert where the bearings would be. the lip area would best be reenforced with an ALU ring or extra plastic to stifffen the often heavvily loaded lips.

for actual plate material I would want the Arius plate composed of carbon fiber and epoxy bonded to the sole of a CF boot. the plate couuld be made with metal inserts for threading and use alll Ti hardware..

sorry Richard, but weight has to be the second choice here uuntil the axles are guarenteed to stay perfectly "inline"


sorry for typos this damn bluetooth keyboard is sh1t
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Old May 7th, 2015, 07:21 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
The problem with quads and their roll is how absurdly crooked they are compared to inlines. The wider the wheels contact patch on the ground the more rolling resistance there is.

Think about it, ANY axle distortion is going to cause friction because the wheels are not rolling in the same line. This is why 8mm >7mm. And spacers are better than not having them. Inlines are supported on BOTH sides of the axle, on top of that the axle is rigidly held in place and further braced by the tightening off the axle into the frame. essentially creating a sleeve aroud the axle which reduces unwanted movement.

additionally the front and rear axles are completely independant of each other, which if not completely straight causes drag. An inline frame is very easy to keep straight in comparison. the fastest setup for quads would be an Arius style with a more rigid plate. then having that plate bonded to a CF sole. this would ensure much better uniformity of truck actions which would decrease rolling resistance.

I would use either 10mm axles with 6900 series bearings, or stay with 8 mm axles and make some wheels set up for angular contact bearings due to the way quads push. or even a combination of both using a radial bearing in specific areas where the ACB bearing would hold the axial forces and the radial bearing would do its job in the other way. of course spacers would be used and one wold want the tightest slip fits possible. ALL hardware would need to be grade 8, no nylon crap. it must be robust enough to handle cycling loads without virtually any flex.

hubs would be around 50mm and high performance plastic with the exception of a machined aluminum insert where the bearings would be. the lip area would best be reenforced with an ALU ring or extra plastic to stifffen the often heavvily loaded lips.

for actual plate material I would want the Arius plate composed of carbon fiber and epoxy bonded to the sole of a CF boot. the plate couuld be made with metal inserts for threading and use alll Ti hardware..

sorry Richard, but weight has to be the second choice here uuntil the axles are guarenteed to stay perfectly "inline"


sorry for typos this damn bluetooth keyboard is sh1t
Sorry, but I am totally not accepting your analysis of why outdoor quads go slower than inlines, except for this one statement you make:
"The wider the wheels contact patch on the ground the more rolling resistance there is." which I completely agree is true.

As far as all the other stuff:
The degree of a problem that quad truck wheel pairs rolling in misaligned (non-parallel) planes, caused by axle flexing, is IMO miniscule at most. The load on quad axles is primarily vertical and the axle flex that this load causes will be in the vertical plane, which will not cause the quad wheels on same truck to shift away from staying parallel to each other.

Not using bearing spacers for two quad wheels on same truck is also only going to allow for the tiniest amount of increased shifting away from parallel to each other, compared to quad wheels properly set up to use a bearing spacer.

The quad wheel bearings are really not stealing that much more energy than inline bearings steal, and even perfect bearing performance from any possible style quad wheel bearing setup is not going to gain you much increase in speed.speed .

Not sure what H/W you are thinking all needs to be Grade 8 (you mean steel)l?
Axles? Kingpins? Pivot pins? Grade 5 titanium is plenty strong, as is 7068 aluminum. Nylon axle nuts and action adjusting nuts work just fine and do not need to be grade 8 steel. Neither do cushion washers or retainers.
Mounting H/W can be 100% replaced with "software" => Shoe Goo, and the resulting mount will be stiffer/stronger.

Flex is not the enemy of speed, as long as snap back returns energy efficiently. Same concept as wheel rebound.

Fastest outdoor wheels, BOTH quad & inline wheels, have NO LIPS, so they do not need aluminum reinforcing lip rings.
Premium Outdoor quad wheels use high strength plastic for their hubs and best designs have enough full hub width spokes to fully stiffen the bearing bores at hub center without using any aluminum rings there.

Neither the Arius nor the DA45 plate designs are very good for best outdoor speed when it comes to handling rolling surface roughness. Their action design is poor for dampening the amplitude of vertical vibrations. This makes Arius & DA45 plates vibrate further in the vertical plane which steals rolling momentum. The da45 plates are very good though for fitting the largest possible diameter quad wheels.

Shallow action plates (steeper 0-15 degree kingpins) have axles located further away from their pivot pin balls (horizontally), and this allows them to swing more vertically (compressing cushions), effectively shock absorbing more road vibrations in the suspension cushions' urethane and reducing the vertical amplitude of the plate oscillations to conserve more rolling speed.

Now, getting back to the topic of the wheel contact patch. Its shape and the orientation of that shape in relation to the rolling direction of the wheel is where, as far as maximum sustained speed goes, the rubber meets the road.
The much greater lateral width of the quad wheel's contact patch in effect puts four little snow plows of rolling resistance on each skate.

In addition, the shorter front-to-back length of the quad wheel contact patch, compared to an inline wheel contact patch, means that the urethane of the quad wheel receives much less % compression per revolution than what % compression inline wheels receive. Too little urethane compression undermines the ability of the urethane formula to maximize its full energy rebound potential. So, inline wheels are primarily just more energy efficient.

Quad wheels also waste energy from wheel scrub when the skate rolls on an arc, which it does on each and every push stroke while traveling at speed.
The wider quad wheel contact patch rolling on an arc means the edges of wheels are spinning at different speeds relative to the ground below them, and this causes wheel scrub which has a braking effect.

So IMO it's what's going on where the rubber meets the road based on the inline versus quad wheel contact patch differences that makes inlines a lot speedier than quads outdoors.

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Old May 7th, 2015, 01:22 PM   #6
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Richard. I'm nit saying the arius ir da45 plates dampen well. The arius is rough outdoors when hitting cracks. However the flex if quad suspension is not going to increase speed. The lack of flex will, as long as there is enough grip. That js why the arius is faster. No cushions to abbsorb power other than the leaning you do with it, not the lateral push stroke.

The axles will flex, period. If you have the grip to exert a large amount of force theres going to be flex. Your essentially asking a bolt, with a1.5 - 2 inch leverage advantage to hold over 200-300 lbs of force and not flex. Also when a quads suspension is moved and the wheels don't roll in the exact same line/arc. Its going to eat up top speed.

I'm FOR gluing plates to soles, to add rigidity, so nothing can flex and all the power goes where it is intended.

Super tight fitting axles to bearings are a big plus. Wider bearing seats help, spacers keep axles and inner races more secure and roll is slightly increased. Sure these things seem insignificant, but when your rolling at 20+ mph a small deflection is going to consume speed as your actual power output is less. Its like a cars engine in a way, every efficiency you can get matters a LOT in those last 2-4mph and the amount if energy needed to sustain said speeds.

Aside from the mechanical shortcomings of quads vs inlines, the "reach" an inline skate has over a quad is greater as well which slows your cadence for a given speed. This "bearing" difference also aids in why inlines are faster. Since your total output can be greater when you have a slower stroke than a fast one. Theres limits of course , with each skaters cadence velocity and power output. Finding the right "gearing" is essential for their best results. That's why you have some people unable to push those longer inline frames, and they have to size down, or often on quads don't like the larger wheels

Most hubs don't have much reinforcement on the outer edge. Well longboard wheels being cut down may be the exceptions though.
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Old May 7th, 2015, 02:46 PM   #7
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Mort,

I am just saying that the rolling efficiency differences between how inline versus quad wheels' contact patches interact with the rolling surface has something like an order of magnitude greater negative impact on quad wheel lower peak rolling speed efficiency than all the other little axle stuff you are pointing to as being significant quad speed stealing factors.

Inlines are ~%50 faster rolling than quads for similar level skaters of each type, and I would say that more than 90% of that difference is based solely on the way that each of their two very different types of wheel contact patch geometries engages energetically with the rolling surface.

Do cars with front wheels alignments set up for toe-in lose a lot of gas mileage from this? I do not think so.

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Old May 7th, 2015, 07:02 PM   #8
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Mort,

I am just saying that the rolling efficiency differences between how inline versus quad wheels' contact patches interact with the rolling surface has something like an order of magnitude greater negative impact on quad wheel lower peak rolling speed efficiency than all the other little axle stuff you are pointing to as being significant quad speed stealing factors.

Inlines are ~%50 faster rolling than quads for similar level skaters of each type, and I would say that more than 90% of that difference is based solely on the way that each of their two very different types of wheel contact patch geometries engages energetically with the rolling surface.

Do cars with front wheels alignments set up for toe-in lose a lot of gas mileage from this? I do not think so.

-Armadillo
A cars alignment is not at all on par with a quad skate. As "gas mileage" goes. And the answer to your question is yes, but not an easily measured amount, because so many things can impact a vehicles MPG. Its also well known that drafting behind vehicles will help gas mileage , its obvious why. No wind resistance. However when myth busters tried to "draft" in behind very close they got worse mileage. Not because the draft doesn't work better, but human error cause a lot more on/off the throttle, reducing gas mileage.

The reason axles matter so much is the direction of rotation of your quad wheels scrubs speed and efficiency when not perfectly aligned. Far worse then if an inline skates frame had wheels that were turned a bit. The farther the wheels are apart the more exaggerated the misalignments will be from a untrue/bent/heavily loaded axle.

There is also the "inlines lean over and quads don't. By allowing your ankles to roll over with the skate on an inline when you carve lets say the first portion of a double push(edging from right foot outside edge to right foot inside edge), you gain a bit more in total stride length. Thus may not seem like it matters, but I assure you it does. This is one of the reasons people can go faster as wheels get bigger. A quad does not get to take part in this. Its advantage is the trucks ability to turn against the arc a inline skate would make, and by doing so, extending your stride. This is another reason I am not sold on 5-10 degree plates being "faster" than a 45 degree plate, or the other way either. As this would entirely depend on several aspects.

But the fact remains that the vast majority of quad skaters don't use spacers, and have axle to bearing interfaces that are usually much looser than an inlines fit is. As well as not having the wheel held in place. When these problems exist for the quad skater, the turning action it offers to recoup the loss to an inlines ability to roll over and gain stride length is negated.

How straight are your axles? How strong are they really? How true is the mating surfaces of the truck to the bearings inner race? This seemingly insignificant list matters a lot from my experiences with my own skates that I've used.

Oh and as for the MPG reference, good idea, but that's more like longevity in a distance race. What you need to be concerned with is power output. And when a engine for a car is balanced and aligned with more precision you can expect a substantial increase in output.

All I'm saying is every potential area where misalignment can occur matters, and quads have a lot more areas of problems vs an inline skate.
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Old May 7th, 2015, 08:07 PM   #9
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OK, here is my testing setup:

Z-Hawg 76mm and 86A wheels mounted with the hub's side set face on the outside instead of inside. This give a wheel track width of 90 mm versus the normal ~120mm. So Wheel track is narrowed by 30mm or ~1-1/4"
Assuming I can skate them OK without the wheels hitting the jump bar, this should be a good setup to determine whether bringing the contact patches closer together and more directly underneath the feet helps to reach and sustain higher speeds on quad skates.




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Old May 7th, 2015, 11:50 PM   #10
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Man thats a tight fit! If there is a noticeable difference in roll then it shows the farther the wheels are apart the more potential for friction due to small distortion (or in some lesser skates, large) differences in which way a wheel tracks, or wants to track.

Cool way to test it, where you can flip the wheels around and all.
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Old May 8th, 2015, 04:04 AM   #11
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If there is any difference at all I would not attribute it to friction. The biggest relevant difference between quads an inlines here is the presence of a suspension, which absorbs energy. By moving the outer edge of the wheels in you are reducing the mechanical advantage they have to torque the suspension, thus (maybe) reducing the degree to which minor imperfections in the surface can tilt the axles in relation to the kingpin.

That said, I expect the biggest difference to be in side to side stability.
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Old May 8th, 2015, 03:31 PM   #12
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Mort,
Velocity Race and RD Twister 70mm outdoor wheels came from the factory with properly sized spacers installed. I have owned many sets of each of these, and, being a mechanical engineer, machinist and inventor, I initially used the spacers thinking just like you, that they were important for better performance.

Then I started reading the opinions of Doc Sk8 and others here advising that people just discard them and set the axle nuts to the positions just before ball pinch happens and where only minimal axial float is possible. I argued against this, but then I realized I should really so some comparative testing before I protested so much.

So, I removed them from one set of two identical sets of wheels and skated my normal closed 1.3 mile loop in time trial mode many different times, so that temps and wind could not be a significant factor, even switching during same session.

The results were that no statistically significant difference of a pattern for faster time for wheels with spacers could be detected. No doubt there is some slight advantage, but I could not see it with how I tested the two sets head to head.

I think you exaggerate the degree of impact on performance that these wheel alignment on axle concerns actually have. You must realize the fact that, as you pointed out above. quad wheel axles stay mostly parallel to ground as they roll. Well. the path of the wheels as you push your strokes while rolling at speed is ALWAYS an ARC.

So, since quad wheels rolling on a curved path are always going to generate wheel scrub at both ends of the contact patch, and every push stroke follows a curve path, you can't eliminate this continuous wheel scrub. I assert that this wheel scrub is a greater concern than the much tinier amount of toe-in or toe-out wheel scrub you worry about. By narrowing quad wheels, not only does surface rolling resistance drop, but arc rolling wheel scrub resistance also decreases.

The problem is, you can only go so narrow before grip drops too low to hold at the peak force level of the push stroke. For me, this wheel width lower limit where slipping starts, is around 28mm and under.

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Old May 8th, 2015, 06:21 PM   #13
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Mort,
Velocity Race and RD Twister 70mm outdoor wheels came from the factory with properly sized spacers installed.
I have owned many sets of each of these, and, being a mechanical engineer, machinist and inventor, I initially used the spacers thinking just like you, that they were important for better performance.

Then I started reading the opinions of Doc Sk8 and others here advising that people just discard them and set the axle nuts to the positions just before ball pinch happens and where only minimal axial float is possible. I argued against this, but then I realized I should really so some comparative testing before I protested so mush.

So, I removed them from one set of two identical sets of wheels and skated my normal closed 1.3 mile loop in time trial mode many different times, so that temps and wind could not be a significant factor, even switching during same session.

The results were that no statistically significant difference of a pattern for faster time for wheels with spacers could be detected. No doubt there is some slight advantage, but I could not see it with how I tested the two sets head to head.

I think you exaggerate the degree of impact on performance that these wheel alignment on axle concerns actually have. You must realize the fact that, as you pointed out above. quad wheel axles stay mostly parallel to ground as they roll. Well. the path of the wheels as you push your strokes while rolling at speed is ALWAYS an ARC.

So, since quad wheels rolling on a curved path are always going to generate wheel scrub at both ends of the contact patch, and every push stroke follows a curve path, you can't eliminate this continuous wheel scrub. I assert that this wheel scrub is a greater concern than the much tinier amount of toe-in or toe-out wheel scrub you worry about. By narrowing quad wheels, not only does surface rolling resistance drop, but arc rolling wheel scrub resistance also decreases.

The problem is, you can only go so narrow before grip drops too low to hold at the peak force level of the push stroke. For me, this wheel width lower limit where slipping starts, is around 28mm and under.

-Armadillo
I dunno about that. I seriously doubt their quality control was enough to have the spacer be cut for each individual hub. Or that their hub tolerances were that good. Everyone seems to have liked their wheels. But I cant help but to see those exact(seemingly) wheels on cheap skates at my local rink. I thought your Z hawgs were a lot better?
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Old May 8th, 2015, 08:15 PM   #14
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Yesterday. I skated 16 miles on the test setup with the 76mm Z-Hawg 86A wheels that were narrowed to 30mm width of contact patch per wheel, and with the wheels flipped on the axles so that the two contact patches of each axle were separated by only 30mm of suspension gap, resulting in only a 90mm total wheel track width.

Since there was about a 20mpg tailwinf & then headwind blowing, it was hard to gauge whether this setup gave a significant speed improvement.
My push stroke definitely felt more securely locked onto the pavement though and I think there may have been as much few % of better speed & roll.

It clearly felt like I was keeping my weight on each axle more equally distributed laterally across both wheels. Until I skate my closed loop course this Sunday (if rain forecast is wrong) I really won't know for sure, but initial impressions tell me that this reversed wheels scheme for narrowing the the wheel track width is at least an incremental improvement.

I only caught a wheel on the jump bar once from that truck being set a bit too loose. Based on this initial success, I plan to remove some of the jump bar width where the wheels could touch to increase the level of turning sharpness before wheel bite happens.

I advise every quad speed skater to check out this kind of a setup if you have access to a plate with narrow enough dimensions for the truck cushion platform and the truck hanger width to allow narrowing the wheel track to 100mm or less.



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Old May 10th, 2015, 04:25 AM   #15
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I forgot to mention in the above post with PIC that the suspension remains VERY easily and freely turning, despite the reduced torque available for working the action from having narrowed the wheel track width by 25%, and this because of the high level of freedom of action that a semi-DA cushion setup with reversed lower firm cone can give you.

In addition, the no retainers (just one undersize washer) against the cushion ends also helps reduce the torque needed to work the action. I may still need to do some tweaking of the resistance ramp up rate to help with avoiding the dreaded wheel bite scenario - landing on outdoor asphalt or concrete is not one of my favorite things to do. Tried it many times - no joy.

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Old May 11th, 2015, 11:01 PM   #16
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A further update:

I filed the jump bar ends at the point where side of wheels swing in toward hitting them. Also radiused the filed edges of bar so they would not shred urethane off sides of wheel as easily for any future bite contacts.
1ST PIC shows the before and after shots for the jump bar modification.
2ND PIC shows the improved clearance gained to allow further truck swing before wheel bite starts. Turning sharpness improved by about 35-40%, which should be fine for trail skating. Emergency evasive action might still trigger some serious bight though.





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Old June 9th, 2015, 03:08 AM   #17
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Good read, keep us posted with more results.
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Old June 9th, 2015, 08:21 PM   #18
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Default ARMADILLO REPORT - Hawg's Project 76mm

Hi Armadillo!

As promised here is my report on the wheels cut by you last March/April

I took my sweet time as I wanted to try them inside, on asphalt at training sessions and on a real marathon race situation.

Sunday I skated my first 42K on the the 76mm Z-Hawg 86A wheels (my 8th marathon on Quads) that were narrowed to 30mm width of contact patch per wheel by Richard. The road was terrible, holes, rocks, you name it... Final time was not brilliant!
But the wheels did very well. It was a case of Quad Cross Racing!

This wheel compared with my 76mm Krypto Classics 78A is a no contest.

Lighter, better lateral push, I like the straight cut exterior edge when pushing, better roll, faster.

I noticed first the weight gain and then the roll, very stable wheel at high speeds. I can keep up with my inline club friends on inlines with 100 mm wheels. (OK for a lap or two....)
I use a Bont Patriot Boot mounted on a RoLLine chassis and Swiss Bones.

Thank You Armadillo, great wheels for any surface!

I still keep 2 sets of Hyper Strada - Tom Peterson at hand and just in case. If the hubs of the Hawgs could be a little larger and lighter (less polyurethane around) this would be a top contender.

Nevertheless possibly after cutting and inverting them surely the best spent money on a pair of wheels!

Thanks Richard!

Pedro
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Old June 18th, 2015, 10:24 AM   #19
AussieScott
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Default Skating Track.

Hi Armadillo,

I would say its not the skating track that slows you down its the contact area. Wider the track the more push can get off your wheels. Nothing stopping you taper cutting the inside of the wheels and leaving on the lip. I like the extra push I get with wide wheels/wide skating track.

Less surface area touching the ground should mean less rolling resistance thus more speed. Like inlines.

In case someone has already mentioned this I plead guilty to not reading all the above posts. Not enough time in the day.

Regards,
Scott.
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Old June 18th, 2015, 08:47 PM   #20
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Hey Pedro,

Thanks for the update on the narrowed Z-Hawgs performance, and I am glad the results showed enough improvement to justify the cost of cutting the wheels to 30mm contact patch.

Interesting that AussieScott thinks a wider wheel gives him better push, yet you report the opposite from the narrowed Z-Hawgs.

Hopefully, you get some better asphalt surface races later in the year and break your personal best marathon record.

-Armadillo
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