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Old August 7th, 2017, 12:28 AM   #1
fierocious1
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Default Washers and cups.

I have been experimenting lately with small OD 3/8 bore plastic washers on my DA45s. Two issues cropped up and one good benefit. With the small OD washers, I had less ramp up of resistance during deep pushes. The trade off is cushion life on the left front truck. If my kingpin's smooth shoulder(non-threaded area) was longer and I used tube spacers to keep the threads away from the cushions, that problem most likely would go away.
I cut some plastic washer down(3/8) with an od that matched the tapered lower cushion small end, then cut a 45 degree bevel on the edge. Installed these before the session today, then ran them for the full session. Results are that the wider washers, no cups, would still ramp up resistance at the end of the stroke on low fast skating. This promoted traction loss with wheels and suspension that had previously been working well.
So more work is in store to find a happy medium. Maybe a new style washer is in order that lets the cushions give without damaging them. Got to make several changes and try to keep low ramp up and retain cushion life and also not have the cushions/washers hit the trucks during extreme truck turning angles.

Last edited by fierocious1; August 7th, 2017 at 01:42 AM.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 08:26 AM   #2
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Would drilling the cushion out a few mm help.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 05:40 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierocious1 View Post
With the small OD washers, I had less ramp up of resistance during deep pushes. The trade off is cushion life on the left front truck.
The nylon washers flex. That's why I stopped using them. It seemed counter productive though I have no data or experience to back it up. In your scenario, the flex might be an advantage. I can't stick with a single setup long enough to tell the difference.

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I cut some plastic washer down(3/8) with an od that matched the tapered lower cushion small end, then cut a 45 degree bevel on the edge.
The cushion diameter changes as you compress them. I use a 3/4" od aluminum washer that fits about right for the cones. It looks a little large until you crank down on the king pin nut. I could machine it down, but why bother.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 06:32 PM   #4
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I run blue cones top and bottom, the top cones bottom sits on the hanger, the lower cone sits on a titanium washer, I stack three 1/2mm plastic washers on the tops, ultimate flexibility, minimum weight.
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Old August 7th, 2017, 10:10 PM   #5
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Default Shaped washers

Is where I am going with this. Shaped to work with the compression/deformation of the cushions rather than restict cushion movement. I have been running an hourglass cushion configuration for years for low ramp up, but am now seeing considerable differences just by using larger od flat washers. So Im thinking of a radiused sided washer. Radium against the small cone end. Below the cone, below the truck. Just one more thing to do.... might need to be angled instead.... testing to follow soon....
Have to knock the dust off the plate analyzer...

Edit: I pulled the beveled washers off and cut the lip down to about 2/3 the OD of the little end of the cone. Reinstalled and most of the freedom of movement is back. I also found two more busted yellow cushions in the process. These yellows are just falling apart...

Last edited by fierocious1; August 8th, 2017 at 02:27 AM.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 05:42 AM   #6
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Are you still using the double cone cushions between the plate and the truck?

Cushion life can be extended if the cushions you are using have the small ribs on the wider area(where it should contact the truck yoke) if you use suspension grease (valvoline synpower is what I use.) Where the cushions meet the truck yoke. This greatly cuts down on the rub that occurs when leaning the plate over.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 06:47 PM   #7
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Are you still using the double cone cushions between the plate and the truck?

Cushion life can be extended if the cushions you are using have the small ribs on the wider area(where it should contact the truck yoke) if you use suspension grease (valvoline synpower is what I use.) Where the cushions meet the truck yoke. This greatly cuts down on the rub that occurs when leaning the plate over.
I'm not having a rubbing friction problem, more of a crushing, splitting cushion problem. The area around the cone is limiting the action a little bit. When the DA 45 plate steering is slowed down, it takes a little more input(more lean), just enough that clearance around the cone is limited. If I were using standard cushion cups below the truck(the small ones), the cups would hit the trucks. Some of my older trucks have scrapes and wear where the cups made contact. So I have replaced the cups with washers, they were a bit small and I made some that were too large.. Trying to find the happy medium now. Possibly a radius-ed on one side, washer will work. That way I have compression, but the cushion is allowed to deform and roll onto the the edge of the washer but not compress so much to split it. If the washer is flat, it is compressed earlier because the edge of the washer is already loaded from the cushion and leads to ramp up and crushing of the cushion. Got some made up to test for Sunday. The feel of the trucks being forced over in my hands is fine but now to see on my feet.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 10:53 PM   #8
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Got a picture of where the cushion damage is?

Doesn't your kingpins also have a lot of thread where the ID of the cushion sits?

I can't help but think that a dab of lube would help.

Also taking a file and rounding off the edge of all the washers. Ideally they would be the same OD as the tapered portion of the cone with a 45 deg rounded bevel on their edges, least in theory it sounds good.
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Old August 10th, 2017, 01:51 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Got a picture of where the cushion damage is?

Doesn't your kingpins also have a lot of thread where the ID of the cushion sits?

I can't help but think that a dab of lube would help.

Also taking a file and rounding off the edge of all the washers. Ideally they would be the same OD as the tapered portion of the cone with a 45 deg rounded bevel on their edges, least in theory it sounds good.
There is some threads just inside the cushions. Longer studs will cure that. The washers aren't biting in to the cushions at all. This weekend's test will give me a bit more info.
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Old August 19th, 2017, 02:47 PM   #10
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Default some pics

Pinched cones
https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057...posted-public/

Pinched cones and small washer used to replace the cup, was too small. I tried a larger washer but it was too big and promoted ramp up. The new one works well.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057...posted-public/

New tapered small washer, still checking for cushion damage but so far its ok.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057...posted-public/

Tight clearance between nut and truck body after caster change(used like this for a long time).
https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057...posted-public/

Soft suspension with low ramp up of resistance during turns, which promotes awesome traction, not good for derby. Great for session skating for cutting and slicing through traffic with out fear of losing grip.
There you go Mort. Just took me a while to get the pics.

Later today, endoscope camera on bottom of skate looking at how the suspension actually works.. Hopefully the video is at least OK. 2 gb camera I think, not a lot but maybe enough.
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Old August 19th, 2017, 04:48 PM   #11
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Edit: it looks like a lot of dry rubbing going on, which is causing the durability issues./edit

I would still recommend some grease where the cushions meet the truck, it gets to a point where the cushion stack is shifting and flexing on that small retainer/washer instead of the truck yoke. which is not what you want, as that destroys the cushions when there is dry friction on the small end of the cone.

The large end of the cone has more material, and more contact with another surface which will resist deforming before the small end because its cupped in the truck's yoke.

I know my daughter is not at your weight, but the function of the floor side cushions is the same on both plates. I added grease to her suspension and her 2 year old floor side cushion had near zero wear(some compression set) and we skated 3 (sometimes 4)sessions a week plus outdoor. We did a lot more than just skate in a straight line, LOTS of hard turns, cant help it, small rink, plus we use other skaters like an obstacle course


Remember that virtually anything that develops a tear or abrasion will have that area propagate in size, so the abrasion causes the initial damage, then it appears to habe a "crushed" appearance, i can assure you that is not crushing damage.
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Old August 19th, 2017, 05:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
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Edit: it looks like a lot of dry rubbing going on, which is causing the durability issues./edit

I would still recommend some grease where the cushions meet the truck, it gets to a point where the cushion stack is shifting and flexing on that small retainer/washer instead of the truck yoke. which is not what you want, as that destroys the cushions when there is dry friction on the small end of the cone.

The large end of the cone has more material, and more contact with another surface which will resist deforming before the small end because its cupped in the truck's yoke.

I know my daughter is not at your weight, but the function of the floor side cushions is the same on both plates. I added grease to her suspension and her 2 year old floor side cushion had near zero wear(some compression set) and we skated 3 (sometimes 4)sessions a week plus outdoor. We did a lot more than just skate in a straight line, LOTS of hard turns, cant help it, small rink, plus we use other skaters like an obstacle course


Remember that virtually anything that develops a tear or abrasion will have that area propagate in size, so the abrasion causes the initial damage, then it appears to habe a "crushed" appearance, i can assure you that is not crushing damage.
Im suspecting the damage is from using the undersized washer. It occurs only on one cushion. The front bottom cushion on theleft skate. No wear on any of the other cushions. The other cushions are set up the same way but show zero wear.
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Old August 20th, 2017, 01:52 AM   #13
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Default cushion action @

Second Chance Skates "The Forum". I put a couple of videos over there with cushion action. Shows a lot... especially the lower cushion distortion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTo5_fHmI8k

Lots happening iin here. Notice the upper "purple" cushion being distorted when the "yellow" cushion gets closer to max resitance. Also the bottom cushion gets pushed around a lot.

Sorry had to change the link.

Last edited by fierocious1; August 24th, 2017 at 03:12 AM.
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Old August 20th, 2017, 04:51 AM   #14
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What do expect from a 45 degree truck .The loads not taken up like it should be.Its riding on the side of the kingpin not the cushion.
It even shows that in your photos..
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Old August 20th, 2017, 12:30 PM   #15
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What do expect from a 45 degree truck .The loads not taken up like it should be.Its riding on the side of the kingpin not the cushion.
It even shows that in your photos..
Anybody using as loose a suspension on a DA45 as this can expect some kp rub. Besides, you would think the cushions would just sit in the cups and behave, they dont unless you are crushing your cushions. I saw that on the analyzer when testing plates last year. I can open up the slot some but its not binding, so no need. Maybe just clean up the casting flash. The kp doesn't show any damage, the truck only has some paint missing.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057.../in/datetaken/

Cushion damage from lack of clearance around the lower cone area.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057.../in/datetaken/

Pocket rub from the cone.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/435057.../in/datetaken/

So what is your point? lot of skaters run looser compression than I do. The cushions are a little more than snug, I don't do floppy trucks. So you will see much more movement on looser suspension, these are yellows. Blues would be way too soft for me to use and at my weight, IMO, would move much more than this. I don't believe in running the softest cushions, I believe in running the firmest cushions that let you achieve traction and handling. If the compression is too hard, you loose traction on marginal floors, too soft and you loose a bit of control. It is a balance. I had not seen cushion action captured on camera til now, maybe it has been captured before but I haven't seen it. Cushions distort quite a bit, the harder you lean, the more distortion you get. Cushions distort much more than people would normally believe that they do. If you are a session skater and cut and turn hard, you will be surprised at just how much a DA45 will move cushions around.
I don't have any mounted steeper kp plates to skate. However I can put a standard style plate, like a competitor and set up some lean. I bet they move a good bit too.

Last edited by fierocious1; August 21st, 2017 at 01:17 PM.
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Old August 20th, 2017, 02:36 PM   #16
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Default Caster change

Changes some of the geometry. It also was not originally planned from the factory standpoint of designing the trucks, extra clearance was not planned into the truck. The clearance has not been a major issue or cause of binding. Just now getting around to addressing it. There is just enough rub to remove paint over time, no scraping damage to the truck. In the future I will clearance the pockets and repaint the trucks. People that believe DA45s can't be improved on and ditch them, your loss. Mine just keep getting better and better.
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Old August 20th, 2017, 11:41 PM   #17
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Maybe try a purple cone on the bottom and the top 2 keep the same, this should help equalize the deflection, sibce there is a lot more cushion space ontop of the truck.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 12:19 AM   #18
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Maybe try a purple cone on the bottom and the top 2 keep the same, this should help equalize the deflection, sibce there is a lot more cushion space ontop of the truck.
Changing the lower cushion to a harder cushion changes the kickback at the end of the stroke. A harder cushion on bottom will reduce kickback, softer will increase it at theend of the stroke. The deflection will not change much with a cushion hardness change, the cushions will swell and bulge no matter. It will just change the tune when the cushions hardness is changed. Right now they are perfect for me. I'll have to post some more video in a few days.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 05:08 AM   #19
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That is some crazy damage. On some of your cushions it looks like the cushion cup (or whatever you are using) is eating the cushion during adjustment. I have a similar issue with blue cones. But never had a yellow fail like that. In fact I replace them due to compression-set. since a shorter cushion changes the geometry.

FYI: I'm trying to find a way to switch to Roll Line cushions since they have more meat and a larger diameter.
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Old August 21st, 2017, 07:03 AM   #20
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So what is your point? lot of skaters run looser compression than I do. The cushions are a little more than shug, I don't do floppy trucks. So you will see much more movement on looser suspension, these are yellows. Blues would be way too soft for me to use and at my weight, IMO, would move much more than this. I don't believe in running the softest cushions, I believe in running the firmest cushions that let you achieve traction and handling. If the compression is too hard, you loose traction on marginal floors, too soft and you loose a bit of control. It is a balance. I had not seen cushion action captured on camera til now, maybe it has been captured before but I haven't seen it. Cushions distort quite a bit, the harder you lean, the more distortion you get. Cushions distort much more than people would normally believe that they do. If you are a session skater and cut and turn hard, you will be surprised at just how much a DA45 will move cushions around.
I don't have any mounted steeper kp plates to skate. However I can put a standard style plate, like a competitor and set up some lean. I bet they move a good bit too.

Its really simple the cushion is riding on the KP.
your photos prove it...
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