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Artistic Skating Forum Discussions about any topic related to artistic roller skating including quad artistic skating, inline figure skating, pairs, dance, synchronized skating, and show skating.

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Old October 25th, 2017, 07:02 AM   #1
larryoracing
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Smile Performing the flip jump:

Today I started jumping and spinning again. Actually it was about a week ago, but one week has gone by. And my newly acquired friend, Peter has been coaching me all along the way. He goes in for an operation tomorrow/Thursday and I don’t know when I will see him again, but hopefully soon.

Before he left today we sat down and had a chat. It lasted 5 hours. Have you ever talked to somebody about skating and have the conversation last 5 hours? Nope, neither have I and it is a common occurrence. It tests my patience over and over again. Lord help me…lol!

But today we started working on the flip jump. I actually was trying to perform a simple 5 jump combination, that I think most on this internet board could perform or at least make a good stab at it, no pun intended. The flip jump is performed by stabbing the right toe-stop into the floor while rotating and in this case performing a single flip is one revolution.

The simple 5 jump combination is the Waltz jump, loop jump, Mapes jump, Euler jump ( a loop jump landing on the LIB edge) and ending with the flip jump (take off in the LIB edge, stab with right toestop and land on the ROB edge.

Peter said “push the left leg/skate through the skating floor”. I was trying to stab with the right leg and pole vault into the air, using my shoulders/arms to create rotation and get around/one revolution in the air.

If you really thought about it the loop jump and the mapes/Toewalley jump is performed by pushing the Right skate, through the floor. The arms and shoulder are only a assist in rotation, not the cause of the rotation. The pushing of the right leg through the floor allows for lift, and then you can rotate. By trying to do the loop,mapes or toewalley by rotation only will create a lot of problems in trying to perform combination jump using the loop and mapes jumps, not to mention the Euler jump and flip jump 5 jump combination.

But most people have weak left legs and really can’t push the left skated into the floor, like the right skate on the loop or mapes jump, so they try to use the stabbing action of the right toe pick/toestop and try to force the flip jump up and around by using excessive force of the shoulders and arms to whip the jump around.

I soon realized my weakness and what is needed to perform the flip jump correctly. This pushing action of the left skate/jump foot on the salchow is the same action/problem as on the flip jump. Instead of jumping by pushing the left skate through the floor to get lift, we whip the right skate around to get lift in the salchow, but the lift should come from left skate/leg bending pushing down into the floor which allows the body to lift straight up in the air,then use the right leg, shoulder and arms to assist in the rotation of the salchow jump.

Sincerely,

Larry O and happy jumping. I have learned if you have a good helper he can help you avoid hurting yourself, because you are not performing the jump in-correctly. But it really takes someone who knows what they are talking about to really help you. But it is basic stuff when you think about it and you just need somebody to tell you how to do the jumps or spins correctly.
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Old October 25th, 2017, 10:31 AM   #2
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Hi Larry,
I am so happy for you that you found a teacher/mentor who is willing to spend so much time with you. I hope Peter will get through his medical issues quickly.

I like what you described about your jumping and where the lift and rotation originate. What you described about the combination is a basic 5 step combination. Once you get that well enough then a good next step is to substitute the waltz jump with an Axel or a Boeckl. Either one would be preceded with some advanced footwork.

What I found difficult on the Flip or Lutz was the same thing I felt doing edge runs to the right (forward), which was an un-natual feeling. Most of us are use to typical counter clockwise movement around a rink in normal session skating and in dance, so we favor that direction. Freestyle skaters have to utilize all directions which can feel a bit uncomfortable on a forward right or backward left lean. So is the same with the flip and lutz. But with practice and time it will feel natural.

Once you get the loop comfortably, you may find the Boeckl very easy. It can be taken off like a loop but from the forward direction (left leg in front) or you can use the drag from behind (left leg behind like an Axel but opposite foot). What is cool about the Boeckl is that it is a great step to the learn the double Loop. If that is your goal then practice the Boeckl with the left foot in front as you would a loop.

Again Larry, I am happy for you.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 03:05 AM   #3
larryoracing
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Smile Jim, thanks for the advice and hints for better freeskating.

Dear Jim,

Thanks for the post. It’s great to hear from you. Maybe someday we will meet up. I did meet Don from this internet board and he is a fantastic skater. I could learn a lot from just watching him.

Like I said Nationals was great and I got to meet a lot talented skaters who are very nice people.

I like your advice on turning the forward loop jump into a 1.5 revolution boeckl. That is really nice…lol! Thanks for the hint and reminding me of a jump I almost forgot about…the Boeckl.

Peter taught me two things that I was ready to hear. Every lobe has a certain amount of beats. Divide those by two and you have the center point for every lobe of a dance. If you are hitting the center points of every lobe of a dance your pattern should be right on.

Secondly in freestyle you control the jump or spin. Don’t execute a jump or spin until you are ready. When you are ready aim for the landing. If you think about the landing, before you jump everything will go up square and have a better chance of executing and landing safely, square on the tracing and a nice exit lobe. Which is so important, that is the only thing I think about when jumping…ie…where do I want this jump to land and how do I want to land it.

Sincerely,

Larry Otani
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Old October 28th, 2017, 12:09 PM   #4
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Hi Larry,
I totally agree on the points you made about lobes and jumps and spins. They are spot on. It seems that Peter knows his stuff. Count your blessings.

I hope that some day we can meet. I would enjoy the heck out of it. I also hope that I am back skating at that time.

I had a very bad lung infection for a month and I am just now recovering. Still coughing some but much better. At the same time I had kidney stones on both sides and thought I would need surgery. Lucky my wife knew a doctor who gave good advice and now the stones are shrunk and hopefully will pass, but at least no more pain. So I have been a bit under the weather.

Now that I am retired and on a fixed income I am waiting for taxes at the beginning of next year so I know how much of my savings is left over. My wife and I have agreed not to spend it till taxes unless an emergency. I expect to have near 10 K disposable after taxes and I plan on spending about 2K for my skating and to buy reloading equipment for my gun. The rest will be for emergency. My wife already spent hers on the house for a few upgrades but I didn't have immediate needs so I will wait. I still need to lose a little more weight.

Weather is cooling off finally. We are starting to walk and soon I can be doing some jogging or running. I have lost about 10 lbs but I have about 80 more to lose before I can really prep for competition again. I really want to compete and maybe then we will meet.

Next time you go to Nationals, see if you can find the skaters from Tampa. One of my former club members is an instructor with some very skilled skaters there. His name is Paul Hinton. He was the second person who I saw doing jumps and spins that got me started freestyle. He is a great skater and very nice and humble. His daughter is also very good.

It would be great to meet Don too. I am getting excited to get there. I have decided to go back to my old super deluxe. I have sent an email about doing a refurb on them. My wife trashed my advantage skates after my last fall. I was upset but maybe it is for the good. They were good for dance but not stable enough for freestyle for me and my weight made it dangerous. I will replace the boots with 297's instead of the gold star which were way to stiff.

I will keep you informed.
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Old October 28th, 2017, 10:07 PM   #5
larryoracing
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Smile Dear Jim, Great to hear from you.

Dear Jim,

Great to hear from you. Take it easy and get your life and health in order. Skating will always be there for you as long as you have a skating rink nearby. It seems you are close to Tampa, Fl and I guess they must have a pretty good artistic program.

But I will try to look up the skaters from Tampa, next year as long as I qualify to go…lol!

Last year was pretty unique. Nobody in three states skated figures in my Division/Veteran Figures for men 55-65 yrs old. So, I got first in my region and went to Nationals. Easy deal and I got 6th out of the 9 Nationals skaters and surprised myself. I thought that was pretty good since, I don’t consider myself a figure skater…lol!. I just skated figures because I thought it would help my dance.

If anybody is listening. This is how I feel about figures. In figures everything happens really slow, so you have a chance to figure out what you are doing wrong. In dance you are moving at a pretty good clip and the subtle things, like skating square, which way are you leaning and body position get harder to pinpoint where the problem is. Do the same type of turns or edges on a figure circle, skating really slow and it’s more than apparent where the problem is. Fix the problem on the figure circle and the dance should be a lot better…lol! Should…be…….in theory…lol!

Dance/solo dance I had the same problem or blessing. Out of three states competing in my region only three boys skated solo dance. Again, I got last/3rd and got to go to Nationals. 14 boys qualified for Nationals and only 12 skated. I got 11th and the ordinals for 9th and 10th were really close to mine, only 1 or 2 ordinals points separating me from my competition, so again I felt really good regardless of my placement, which was 11th out of 12 skaters skating.

This year is a whole new “bowl of wax”. They completely changed the rules, the dances and the age brackets for each division you skate. So, I really have no idea what to expect at local competitions, regional’s or nationals?????

The new age bracket for me is 50-64 years of age. I’m 62 and since by birthday is Jan 3rd, I get to skate in this age bracket//Division 2 for three more years. The cut off date for your age is Jan 1. Since my birthday is Jan 3rd, I get to skate an extra year, which is three more years in this age bracket. Which is really kool, since after skating 2-3 years in a particular age bracket you are bound to get better, right????? I think so…lol!

Anyways they added one more twist to this year’s competition rules. One of the level’s in each age bracket is the Bronze Level/Beginning Level. And if you have ever placed at Nationals in solo dance you can’t skate in this level.

Well, last year the first four placements at Nationals in my division where national champions from previous years and I’m willing to bet a few more skaters probably had placed at nationals in years prior. They have been skating for a lot of years…lol!

So, this year, I wouldn’t be surprised if 6 of the skaters who placed and beat me last year will not be eligible to skate the Bronze/Beginning level. Since I have never placed at Nationals in anything…lol, I can skate Bronze Figures and Bronze Solo Dance and have a reasonable shot at winning. At least I should be able to get better than 6th in Figures and better than 11th in Solo dance, skating the Beginning level Bronze for my age bracket of 50-64 years of age.

Anyways I agree with you about the weight. In fact, I think that is the most important thing if you want to become a freestyle skater, if you are a very old freestyle skater. I’m 62 years old and I think that is really too old to be jumping and spinning. But after one year of skating my legs and health are getting better and stronger!

And really the other day I got on the scale and couldn’t believe how light I was. On year ago, I weighed 167 lbs. Last night I got on the scale and only weighed 152 lbs. In one year skating,skating every day for 3-4 hrs per day I had lost 15 lbs!!!!!

When I was 18 years old, I weighed 135 lbs, So I’m 17 lbs over my ideal weight. If some how I lost another 10 lbs that would be incredible and make my jumping and spinning a lot easier.

There are a lot of old guys like myself who are heavy, but they only skate dance. Some skate figures. You can get away with it when only skating dance and figures, but if you are going to jump and you are heavy it’s a problem. A serious problem and shouldn’t be taken lightly. I’m guessing old people who are heavy and jump and spin are asking for a injury. If you must jump and spin when you are old, get you weight down first or don’t jump and spin.

Sincerely,
Larry Otani

P.S. We look forward to seeing you back when the time is right and if you feel like it. What size plates are your super deluxe skates????
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Old October 28th, 2017, 10:35 PM   #6
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Hi Larry,
I about 4 to 5 hours from Tampa. Too far to travel to practice. I live in Tallahassee. Tampa was where I learned to skate and skated Regionals from that rink.

You are so right about all of what you said. I need to lose the weight. At 300 lbs and being off skates, I was surprised that I could do a single mapes. It's stupid to do the jumps but who said I was smart. I know I can do them again, with a little strength training and loss of weight. I can feel it. I think I can even do better now than I did in my prime. I believe I am even more disciplined and less impulsive.

Yes, I hope to see you in competition.
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Old October 30th, 2017, 11:40 AM   #7
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Default Single rotation jumps

Could either of you go through the various starting edge, rotation direction and landing edge of these various single rotation jumps? I get confused on which is which.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 08:32 AM   #8
larryoracing
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Smile Ok Derrick here goes...lol!

Let’s take a simple Mapes jump. In Ice Skating they call it the toe-loop.
You skate in the opposite direction, so let’s see if I’m smart enough to jump like Derrick. Derrick jumps in the Clockwise direction. So, that makes it completely different and confusing for the “normal” skater…lol.

So, for Derrick the Mapes is jumped off the Left Foot, LOB edge and you use the Right Toe stop to assist in the lift, in the Clockwise direction.

Go into the jump, which is in the opposite direction of the normal flow of traffic in the skating rink, session. Get on the LOB, bring the right foot back, use the right toe stop to help you get lift into the air, and jump straight up and rotate Clockwise one revolution and land on the same skate you took off on, LOB.

Land on the LOB edge and bring the Right leg around for the landing; on landing bring the right leg from the forward position to the Backward position and stretch the Right leg back for the landing.

Let’s move onto the Toewally, which is the inside edge take off for the Mapes. So, for Derrick because he jumps in the opposite direction of “Normal” skaters he will be going with the flow of traffic in the skating rink and take off on the LIB edge. On the Mapes he took off on the LOB edge. So the Toewally is taken off on the Inside Back Edge/LIB.

Everything else is the same as the Mapes. The only thing different between the Mapes and Toewally is the take off edge.

For Derrick the Mapes is taken off the LOB edge. For Derrick the take off edge for the Toewally is the LIB edge. All jumps for Derrick land on the LOB edges/normally for Derrick. There are some jumps that Derrick can land on the LIB, but that is not the norm for Derrick. In general, most the time Derrick should be landing the on LOB edge, for all jumps.

Let’s move onto the Flip Jump for Derrick. Remember Derrick rotates in the opposite direction/Clockwise. So, for Derrick traveling in the opposite direction of the normal flow of traffic, Derrick will take off the Flip jump on the opposite foot of the Mapes and on the inside edge instead of the outer back edge. So, for Derrick he will take off on the RIB edge. He will assist the jump with the Left toe stop. He will jump in the Clockwise direction. Everything else is the same for the rest of the jump. All jumps rotate in the same direction and in general for Derrick and land on the LOB edge.

The last jump for Derrick in the Toe Assisted jumps is the Lutz. Instead of taking of on the RIB for the Flip, Derrick will take off on the ROB edge. This will be in the normal flow of traffic for Derrick. So, you take off on the ROB and assist with the Left Toestop. When you jump into the air everything else is the same as the Flip, Mapes and Toewally. As in all the other jumps, Derrick will land on the LOB edge.

Let’s move onto the Loop jump for Derrick who rotates Clockwise, not the normal rotation direction. The loop jump is like the Mapes jumps except there is not toe assist from the Right leg.

Just as in the Mapes for Derrick the Loop jump will be take off on the LOB edge. Instead of using the Right leg as a toe assist, you will use the Right leg as a momentum assist in doing the Loop Jump. Everything else is the same once you take off on the LOB edge and use the momentum of the Right leg to help in the rotation of the jump.

Remember in the Loop jump you jump off the LOB edge. You don’t jump with the free leg. The free leg is the momentum assist not the cause for doing the jump. You do the loop jump by jumping with the Left leg pushing off the floor. Not by jumping by using all the effort of the right leg to get height and rotation.

Do this and your loop jump will be wildly out of control instead of being smooth and continuous from jumping up off the Left leg and using the right leg for balance and control, height control and rotatation control. The right legs assists the jump and not the sole cause for making the jump happen!

Let’s move onto the Salchow. The Salchow is taken off on the RIB edge for Derrick. He will enter the jump in the opposite flow of traffic. He will use the Left Leg in an assist for rotation and height.

But the jump is jumped with the Right leg pushing into the floor and jumping straight up in the air. Using the left leg as an assist in rotation and height. Everything else is the same, as in all other jumps, Mapes, Toewally, Flip, Lutz and Loop and Derrick will land on the LOB edge.

Let’s talk about the axel. This is the most difficult jump because it is 1.5 revolutions and because it takes off going forward. Three things are happening, jumping off the ROF Foot, using the Left leg as an assist to the jump and pulling it in to get rotation all at the same time. Once you take off you will rotate in the same direction as before, Clockwise for Derrick and land like all the other jumps on the LOB edge. Good Luck!

Larry O

P.S. I don’t recommend the axel for old people who have never jumped before. You will most likely hurt yourself. Also another Forward taking off jump is the Boeckel. In Derricks case he will take off on the LIF edge bring the Right leg up into rotating position and like all other jumps land on the LOB edge. Again I don't recommend this jump for old people who have never jumped before as a youth.
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Old October 31st, 2017, 02:32 PM   #9
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Default Thanks Larry

That’s exactly the information I was looking for. And about the axel, it’s above my skill level. Sometimes, I do axels off skate, but no plans on the surface. There’s a big difference in take off when you don’t have an unbendable skate plate attached to your foot. Sprining off your toes to gt height is s lot easier than having a skate on.

But I can do one rotation on two feet forward or backwards CW or CCW (going real slow). With skates on I’m just making it around though. Off skate its really easy. Landing one foot is no problem.

Actually, I usually do my waltz counter clockwise. But that’s just because it’s easier to find room for in session.

But your right, I prefer to do the one rotation clockwise. I’ll have to do the oposite waltz in combos (if I ever do combos). I haven’t practiced the waltz that way in while.


I like jumping and spinning a lot, but I wish I was better at it.

My IB continues to slowly come along. I can get 5 or 6 rotations. Learned some stuff recently from ice skating videos that helped. Making sure my arms have tension and come around the set foot before spinning. Hopping to get that up to 10 rotations. And work on a controlled exit. I get out jumping to LOB but not going with traffic. I saw the art skaters more bend and push to LOB rather than jump.

I’m still out there having fun, even though I don’t comment as much as I used to.
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