How long to learn proper crossovers?

[Abadjiev]

I have been skating for about 3 years. Started because my doctor said that if I continued running, I would only be hastening my knee replacement surgery. That said, up until now, I working on my form, keeping my knees together, concentrating on going forward, smooth push and recovery, keeping my support leg inline under my body (nose-knees-toes), etc. Likewise, I didn't concern myself at all with learning to double push.

Now I feel maybe it is time to learn how do a proper underpush as I go around a turn, with the outer leg crossing over in front. Also I was hoping that this would dovetail into learning a proper double push. I have been watching Coach Sooty's videos but find the video where he uses the inner leg to underpush to meet the outer leg VERY hard to mimic. I might add that a lot of these underpushes are painful on my knees (at least when my leg is near full extension). I am willing to work through that.

Any tips? Or experience as to how long it takes to be CONFIDENT to actually place your outer skate on the inside of the underpushing inner leg?

[kentek]

I could have you doing really good crossovers in about 10 minute.

Do you have any video of your skating? Give me the link and I will look at it.
ken

[bjvircks]

lots of help available from short track ice training videos. using what is known as a 'turn cable' and a partner you can practice crossovers without skates.

edit: Are you trying to get power from your crossovers or just go thru the motions? Do you need to go right as well as left? (Most speed skaters can only turn left.)

[Abadjiev]

Originally Posted by kentek

I could have you doing really good crossovers in about 10 minute.

Do you have any video of your skating? Give me the link and I will look at it.
ken

I'll have my wife take a video and I will cringingly send you a link. I have people ask me all the time if I training for the roller derby, if I am hockey player, or if I am training for the Olympics. I laugh cuz I know that to people who actually know skating, I am barely passable.

[Abadjiev]

Originally Posted by bjvircks

lots of help available from short track ice training videos. using what is known as a 'turn cable' and a partner you can practice crossovers without skates.

edit: Are you trying to get power from your crossovers or just go thru the motions? Do you need to go right as well as left? (Most speed skaters can only turn left.)

Both sides. I am not professional. Just skate the local rails to trails. Just want to be better at turns, corners and start learning how to double push also.

[kufman]

Originally Posted by Abadjiev

Any tips? Or experience as to how long it takes to be CONFIDENT to actually place your outer skate on the inside of the underpushing inner leg?

This varies from person to person. I have been able to teach kids to do it in a few minutes yet some adults it will take hours, days, weeks, or never. The most important thing is to have the strength in your ankles and legs in order to do the underpush without having your ankles cave in. There are a few exercises that can help with this if needed. I 2nd what Kentek said, it is easier to help if we can see how you skate.

[Mort]

Find a wall, lean on the wall, get horizontal.(Well 45 deg ) Learn what it feels like to lean on your skates.

Maybe even push a car on flat ground on skates? Where one could easily just walk sideways leaning against the car. Walking sideways if course, to simulate crossovers. A couple people on shoes could be a braced object as well. Your goal here is to simulate the load of inertia which allows us to lean in the turns.


Off(or on) skates
Walk up stairs sideways, with your chest facing up the staircase. Small crossover steps can be done on shorter stairs, and longer steidibg crossovers by either skipping stairs or finding a staircase with larger steps.

To do/practice crossovers the "opposite" direction, simply step with the right aide of your body leading up the staircase. For traditional crossovers, it's your left side that leads.

The heel should hit first, just a split second here, as the stride begins. Your stride will start with more weight on the outside edge during the beginning, and as it comes under your body the weight displacement shifts to the center of the skate, and to the inside edge as you push your leg away, ending with a hard pulse off the ball of the foot. The key here is to make this as smooth as possible. Form is always the most important.

If you watch Olympic level ice speed skaters youll see they have a very smooth flow. Timing your power output is key.

Like pushing a kid on a swing, as they start to come back to you, you prepare to assist gravity when they start their away trip. Your push strength and speed should build during the time you assist their swing with peak power being at the end of your assist.

Skating is alot like that. That heavy surge of power at the end of a firmly building stride.

[evilzzz]

My crossovers improved significantly when I did a season of indoors. I'm left footed/left sided by nature so it has always been difficult for me to keep up with others just turning left all the time, but necessity is the mother of improvement. Sounds boring, but do regular drills and practice and you will improve.. not just crossovers, but overall technique in general.

[chuckboucher]

It's not so much a cross-over as it is a cross-under. In a left turn, your left leg goes under the right and you push through the heel.

The best cross ends up with the under-pushed leg straight, so your foot actually goes across and then forward slightly.

[bjvircks]

and... don't even bother trying 'performance' crossovers standing up... it is worthless. knees well bent and hips low are required for getting powerful leg extension.

[shafeeqs]

Originally Posted by bjvircks

and... don't even bother trying 'performance' crossovers standing up... it is worthless. knees well bent and hips low are required for getting powerful leg extension.

Agreed - crossovers are easier and effective if you're going fast enough that your nose-knees-toes axis is leaning significantly into the turn. So the inside leg pushes mostly straight downwards (knee & hip extension) relative to your body, but looks outwards to a stationary observer. Think of coasting through the corner in a tuck - due to the lean, your inside hip is closer to the ground, so your inner knee must bend more than the outer to keep both feet on the ground. If you extend your inner leg, while maintaining the bend of your outer knee, you'll naturally pick your outer foot off the ground.

If you have an indoor team near you, attending a practice might be useful, since crossovers are most of what they do.

[kentek]

NASCAR is good for your crossovers.
I have a 1/10 mi oval on a hill that I use every week to just work on technique.
I must admit, I have a hard time on the first lap going clockwise.

Here is one drill I do frequently: On a straight section, do one crossover on left, then, one on the right staying in a straight line. The motion should all come from the underpush.

kw

[Abadjiev]

Haven't dragged my wife out to tape me yet, but, I found some vids on YT by Asha of Skatefresh, as well as some others. But Asha showed a drill she called scooting: staying on one leg while pushing with the other. It seems that my outside edge could still use some work. I started to really get quite comfortable after about ten minutes or so, but I still need work.

Also did some dryland crossovers in my skates on grass. Mort's tips about leaning on a wall, and doing crossovers going up stairs are very helpful.

Hope to get a video to you, kentek, this weekend. Thanks for all the help

[Dekindy]

Originally Posted by Abadjiev

a drill she called scooting: staying on one leg while pushing with the other. It seems that my outside edge could still use some work.

I have been following this thread and it just now occurred to me to suggest scooter pushes and then I saw this reply.

My teacher calls them scooter pushes. He says that every skater, no matter how experienced and advanced, can benefit from scooter pushes and should include them in there training. I was progressing but still could not get my clockwise crossover smoothed out or consistent and had not attained the speed I wanted in either direction. Told me to go back to basics and do scooter pushes. It instantly revealed why I was not yet smooth or fast enough. Made him realize that he needed to have his daughter, who has competed in regionals and nationals for several years, should be doing them and next session had her add scooter pushes and more clockwise skating to her workout.

Concentrate on doing short, quick pushes and stay on the edge. Much smoother and more speed with this technique as opposed to long pushes. Do it on each side until you feel the burn. Then do figure eights and focus on straightening up and rocking over to the other direction.

[Dekindy]

Originally Posted by Abadjiev

a drill she called scooting: staying on one leg while pushing with the other. It seems that my outside edge could still use some work.

I have been following this thread and it just now occurred to me to suggest this drill and then I saw this reply.

My teacher calls them scooter pushes. He says that every skater, no matter how experienced and advanced, can benefit from scooter pushes and should include them in there training. I was progressing but still could not get my clockwise crossover smoothed out or consistent and had not attained the speed I wanted in either direction. Told me to go back to basics and do scooter pushes. It instantly revealed why I was not yet smooth or fast enough. Made him realize that he needed to have his daughter, who has competed in regionals and nationals for several years, should be doing them and next session had her add scooter pushes and more clockwise skating to her workout.

[WJCIV]

If you still want more drills one of my favorites is "cross and hold". It's a circle drill, so find a space where you can do a circle with about a 10-30 foot radius circle. Then cross and hold the crossed position for 1-2 seconds. Then uncross/push with your right leg and hold that position for 1-2 seconds. Repeat.

The big secret for crossing is that it is not all about your feet. It's about where your weight is. A good way to visualize that is where your hips and belly button are. When you move one of your feet your weight should move with it, and your weight should land over top the foot (or inside if you're going fast enough to lean). I see a lot of beginner skaters focused so much on their feet, and they never get comfortable because they're not treating it as a step.

Properly getting your weight placement is one reason that you don't want to turn your upper body in to the turn. Your toes, knees, hips, and shoulders should all point the same direction, and then you step sideways. If you turn your shoulders in it pulls your hips to the outside, which is inefficient for a couple of reasons.

[WJCIV]

Originally Posted by chuckboucher

It's not so much a cross-over as it is a cross-under. In a left turn, your left leg goes under the right and you push through the heel.

The best cross ends up with the under-pushed leg straight, so your foot actually goes across and then forward slightly.

You can certainly get good crossovers thinking about it that way, but if you want to get the absolute most power out of your stride I would suggest thinking about pulling your right leg over at the same time as your left leg goes under. However, don't think about your feet. Think about driving your right knee across. It should be driving "up" relative to your orientation if you are leaning properly, which allows you to pull the knee toward the chest in a fashion similar to when you are running. That allows you to engage your abs a little more and power more off the left foot. If you are just swinging your right foot in front you are actually pushing the leg sideways (rather than "up"), which does not take full advantage of how we were designed to move.

Sorry if this is a confusing explanation. If anyone doesn't understand I might take some time to reword it after I've had some time to think. The gist is that a crossover is a step using both legs, and if you think about driving the non-pushing leg you are better using the muscles as they were designed.

[Dekindy]

Originally Posted by WJCIV

You can certainly get good crossovers thinking about it that way, but if you want to get the absolute most power out of your stride I would suggest thinking about pulling your right leg over at the same time as your left leg goes under. However, don't think about your feet. Think about driving your right knee across. It should be driving "up" relative to your orientation if you are leaning properly, which allows you to pull the knee toward the chest in a fashion similar to when you are running. That allows you to engage your abs a little more and power more off the left foot. If you are just swinging your right foot in front you are actually pushing the leg sideways (rather than "up"), which does not take full advantage of how we were designed to move.

Sorry if this is a confusing explanation. If anyone doesn't understand I might take some time to reword it after I've had some time to think. The gist is that a crossover is a step using both legs, and if you think about driving the non-pushing leg you are better using the muscles as they were designed.

My teacher calls them cross-pulls. Have not worked on them yet.

[bjvircks]

so Abadjiev! By now your head might be spinnning from so much input! I'm sure we all hope you are making good progress.

about what WJCIV discusses

Originally Posted by WJCIV

..... but if you want to get the absolute most power out of your stride I would suggest thinking about pulling your right leg over at the same time as your left leg goes under. However, don't think about your feet. Think about driving your right knee across. It should be driving "up" relative to your orientation if you are leaning properly, which allows you to pull the knee toward the chest in a fashion similar to when you are running. That allows you to engage your abs a little more and power more off the left foot. If you are just swinging your right foot in front you are actually pushing the leg sideways (rather than "up"), which does not take full advantage of how we were designed to move....

I think what I take away from what WJCIV is saying is something I've been working on on the ice. Rather than swinging my crossing over skate IN FRONT of my inside skate I work at lifting it OVER THE TOP of it. This means that my underpush stays more in the direction it needs to be to maximize power output rather than sliding/pushing 'backwards' (diminishing forward power output) in order to allow the crossing skate room in front to get by.

[Abadjiev]

I really appreciate all the drills/help. I have been focused on these scooter pushes because it has really revealed some weak spots with me. For instance, all this time I thought my left leg was weaker, but my right leg is far more unstable. This is due to more knee pain on the inside surface of my knee (I've had meniscal surgeries on both knees) on this side. When I have been practicing my arm swing with each push, on my right side, I was involuntarily keeping my right arm by my side because my mind "feared" my knee "giving out". So I have been doubling the amount of time on that side to strengthen the whole supporting structure on that side. I plan on spending the winter focusing on drills, even if I practice indoors balancing on one leg in my skates.