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Old April 19th, 2008, 08:16 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beep1o View Post
And last, people's opinion on what constitutes cruelty to animals is a belief system. What some beleive is cruel, others have no issues with.
The same was said about persons of color, if I remember correctly...
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Old April 19th, 2008, 08:22 PM   #42
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Indeed. I didn't say anything about right or wrong though, I just said it was a belief system.
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Old April 20th, 2008, 01:41 PM   #43
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My original statement, which i guess no one bothered to read, was "wtf is wrong with drinking organic milk?" I don't see how getting a response about the evils of non organic milk and eating meat and the usda is even RELEVANT to that question.

My point is (and has been) that saying you're a Vegan because ALL animal products are produced cruelly is a bunch of silliness. Its simply not true.

I realize you aren't Vegan Beck, and the comment had nothing to do with you personally so the resulting lectures were uncalled for.

And last, people's opinion on what constitutes cruelty to animals is a belief system. What some beleive is cruel, others have no issues with.
I had already ANSWERED that question eons ago......but you must've missed it......
I SAID......orgainic milk was A C C E P T A B L E ........but (and I will insert an "I" in here, because it's what "I'm" going to do.......you do whatever you want)......."I'm" going to be everwatchful about orgainic milk that's labled......"organically graded by the USDA".......I will not BUY organic USDA milk........I will make sure to ONLY buy organic milk from small and or independent dairies. THE USDA = CRAP.

basically, this thread boils down to mistrust of the government and a deffinate aversion to big meat producing/ dairy producing industries.......
(well, and also non-orgainic fruit/veg. producers.......lol)

and I don't recall EVER saying that ALL meat/dairy producers were bad or treating animals cruelly.........however, if it's NOT organic?? how can one know for SURE??.........I can't, unless I am familiar with that company, been to its plants.....and kissed the little cows/pigs/chickens directly on their noses/snouts/beaks!........therefore, if it aint organic, IMO it can't be trusted.
and if it says USDA organic......it STILL can't be trusted.........
cabish??
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Old April 20th, 2008, 01:51 PM   #44
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besides, why in the WORLD would I ever get so hung up on the MILK issue??.......there are soooooo many other products out there that are delicious ........like rice dream and soy milk!! I actually like soy milk MORE than regular milk!!!

nooo.......my real issue is with MEAT.......lol
I looooooooove meat.......and it will be quite the challenge to find ways to avoid buying the crap the USDA shovels out.

if I do EVER eat meat........it will only be ORGANIC.

but.....I want to shoot for NOT eating meat........I'd rather have my body rid of the stuff.
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Old April 20th, 2008, 03:19 PM   #45
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All things considered, we're pretty humane compared to other carnivores in the animal kingdom. Not to excuse captivity and slaughter, but we don't:

- Maul animals with claws and teeth, and start chowing down before they're dead.
- Bite animals with bacteria-laden mouths and then stalk them for a couple of days until they finally succumb to overwhelming infection.
- Latch onto an animal, lamprey-style, and drain its blood and flesh for months before it expires.
- Lay eggs in an animal, which hatch into larvae that consume that animal from inside.

Just food for thought. Nature can be cruel, and animals die so that other animals may live. We can do better by sticking to free-range critters in our diet, and by not boiling lobsters alive. Still, we're genetically programmed to get some of our food from kingdom animalia. No sense in letting guilt blind us to that biological reality.

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Old April 20th, 2008, 03:51 PM   #46
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Beck, my point is, I was making a comment about vegans, which had nothing to do with you, I was not making it to you but in response to the comments about vegans, and you took it and gave me a lecture about all that other stuff.

It was just a comment about organic milk and why vegans are wrong. Nothing more. So unless you wanted to defend vegans not drinking organic milk, I'm at a loss to explain the response I got.

Sometimes a comment means exactly what it says.



Take a look at the conversation summary:

Me: What's wrong with drinking organic milk?

You: Meat is evil, cows are treated cruelly, the USDA is evil!

Me: How is that response relevant to what I asked unless you mean to defend not drinking organic milk?

You: Meat is evil, cows are treated cruelly, the USDA is evil...oh huh why are you asking about organic milk?

Me: That's all I was ever saying, why the lecture about that other stuff?

You: You're obsessed with Milk! I don't get it!

Me: I was only making a statement about the silliness of some vegan attitudes.

You: Meat is evil, cows are treated cruelly, the USDA is evil!

Me: ?????

Not trying to be contentious here, I just think there's misunderstanding about my reason for commenting. Can we be friends now?
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Old April 20th, 2008, 03:58 PM   #47
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*bent-over holding stomach laughing*......"meat is evil".....LMAAAAO!!

ohhh.......you are a stitch......*wipes eyes*.......

if you haven't gotten it by now.......then you AINT gonna get it.....
ta ta.....
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Old April 20th, 2008, 04:51 PM   #48
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Ok beck, one more try. Then I'm done.

I was NEVER talking about meat in this thread. Ever. Not once. My comment was OFF TOPIC...has nothing to do with eating meat. There is nothing for me to get, I never was discussing meat in the first place. I've never even posted my views about eating meat, never even said I disagree with you about meat. Can you understand this? For god's sake, I'M A VEGETARIAN! (but not a vegan) It just happens that that fact isn't relevant in the least to my question about organic milk.

All I did was ask why Vegan's think there is something wrong with organic milk. That's it, nothing more.
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Old April 20th, 2008, 06:29 PM   #49
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but what you dont understand is that the GOVT. is in BED with the meatpacking industry!........they BACK them up and make special allotments
so they can continue the cruel treatment.......
ugh........dude.......you need to take alittle time out to research the FACTS.
I'm not gonna spoon-feed you.

thats ok i dont need spoon feeding, still have some teeth. all i am saying is the system is being abused and it should be fixed.
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Old April 20th, 2008, 06:52 PM   #50
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I hope Kathy closes this thread which is why I came out. I find it ironic that you are vehemently preaching about this stuff and are a hypocrite yourself. You do not need to react to this in anger since I know you are in the attitude that you must be right, I already know you will so I wont waste my time reading it. But thats why others are going to pull away from you and not listen to a word you say. Common dood, be the change you want to be!! If you really want to lead the road of compassion, having almost violent reactions to things is not a road of compassion. Read about Ghandi, now thats the way to go about it if you feel so passionately about it.

Shoot, you can go on being angry about all the clothes you have that support slave labor (better give away all your clothes!!), the wool, silk, etc, DEAD TORTURED ANIMALS ON YOUR FEET (You better sell them dood!), the computer which is also inhumane, your car (no shoes either, you might step and KILL worms or something. Travel is out, too much killing with wheels), house, all the medications, cosmetics and chemicals in your house that were tested on animals VERY inhumanely, the toxic waste you throw out that is killing our environment, the rainforests that we tear down for our own shelter that kills millions of animals, man, you gotta go fruitarian. Thats the only humane way to eat. Cooking is bad for the environment. The harvest of grains and vegetables kills a trillion insects, snakes, mice, small animals, etc. Did you know when you eat plants, the whole plant dies so killing is done there too? Many more sentient beings are actually killed with the harvest of grains. Wow, the milk you drink is also soooo inhumane, that DIRECTLY supports the veal industry. Veal is one of the most inhumane industries out there. Yep, and you seem to support it. Whats worse, torture or death? I say a torturous life is worse. So are you living a humane life in reality? NO!

So look at yourself before you put everyone else down. I live a life focusing on compassion for ALL beings, including human, the earth and myself. Its a life of compromise and something where you change what you can but do the best elsewise. But I also focus on DOING rather then the freaking negative. How does being bitter and angry help? Not for me!!! I like to be so freaking happy, its not even funny. There is no way to live harm free. But do you help out at the animal sanctuary? Did you help out on Earth day? Do you adopt animals from shelters, the rescue? Do you volunteer at animal rescue? Do you take in foster kids? Do you have solar power? A hybrid car at least, shop at thrift stores? Only buy natural, free trade, organic, chemical free, biodegradeable? What do you do?????

Stop preaching, be the change you want to be. You will get it, I hope, in time..... There is so much out there, its maddening, overwhelming. The world only cares about profit, not humanity. But reacting in a ballistic way is no way to evoke change nor inform others. That will create violence. Most people try to live right, some just value other things more. Is being an environmentalist more humane then vegan? Who is to judge?

BTW, I've barely eaten meat my whole life. Does that make me a better human being and should I step up on my OMG, holier then thou pedestal? I dont think so. We all have our faults. I just hold my head high cause I am one of the few humans that will help the old lady pick up groceries at the store. I find meat discusting. I dont think that makes me better/worse of a human being. I also dont judge others. We are biologically born omni and rasied that way. I think being meek is the way to live, that attracts people. The way you are reacting, I would never want to call myself a vegan, that is not compassion. I am not vegan for health reasons and due to angry people who react like you that I dont want to have that stigma attached to me, I put my health first because if I am not healthy and strong, what good am I to others? I only do the harm necessary to keep me healthy and happy, and do my best to do good elsewise. There is only so much time/energy in a day. I have now 6 extremely healthy and happy and well adapted adopted animals from rescues/shelters that wouldnt be alive today if it werent for me. I'm happy with that. Kathy, close this thread!!
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Old April 20th, 2008, 07:24 PM   #51
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Ah RD, I so agree.
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Old April 20th, 2008, 08:21 PM   #52
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Let me first start by exploring just one paragraph at a time. There's alot on the meat-less dinner plate and we can only digest so much...

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by roller_dudette View Post
I hope Kathy closes this thread which is why I came out.
I have issues with this statement in general. Why on earth would you expect Kathy to thread flush? I've noticed that Kathy, though a middle-aged female of American extraction, seems to have it together when it comes to the understanding of others sensitivities. She's a world traveler- "as we've seen in her personal photos," that being said, she would then make it a point not be so quick to censor the ideas and feelings of others. "And,, she's obviously too busy following me around, making sure I'm a good boy."
So let's try and be slightly more diplomatic,, fair enough?

Quote:
I find it ironic that you are vehemently preaching about this stuff and are a hypocrite yourself.
Firstly, as you may have read,, she's just now exploring this "thoughful" way of life. You may call it vehement, but I prefer to see it as passionate. Imagine going your whole life not thinking, just doing, because you were brought up that way. Then all of a sudden, BAM! The lights go on and you find that you've a lifetime of making up to do.. Of course you would lead the charge in life- with renewed vigor, no?
Please don't be so quick to call one a hypocrite, especially when they've hadn't the chance to clean out their closet of accumulated dust... It will take time before she finds her place in this overwhelming world of un-compassionate living...

Quote:
You do not need to react to this in anger since I know you are in the attitude that you must be right, I already know you will so I wont waste my time reading it.
Again, if you've paid any attention to Beck, you would've noticed that in every post on this forum, she comes across as intense in nature. Don't take it personally...

Quote:
But thats why others are going to pull away from you and not listen to a word you say.
They may, then again, some may not. That my friends,, is the wonderful world of advertising and fishing.

Quote:
Common dood, be the change you want to be!! If you really want to lead the road of compassion, having almost violent reactions to things is not a road of compassion.
Not violent, just passionate-- Beck style...

Quote:
Read about Ghandi, now thats the way to go about it if you feel so passionately about it.
That's what is going on. I don't see her talking of terrorist acts against Gillette or Procter and Gamble,, just little-ole' Beck, being her own bad self.. Actually, I'm seeing tendencies of spite coming from the author of whom I'm debating. So we should all be conscious of how we're coming across to one another.
Should I continue to paragraph no.#2?
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Old April 21st, 2008, 12:58 AM   #53
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thank you SOOOOO much Drella.......
now here's a GUY who UNDERSTANDS THE DEAL.......

if you KNEW me......lol.....which you DON'T.......you'd know that I am NOT
an angry or violent person.......but just like Drella said.......I am a bit PASSIONATE about this newfound subject that my eyes have been opened unto. I'm sorry you didn't decipher that in my posts........
I will say......ANIMAL CRUELTY ANGERS ME.......and when I realized that I had been SUPPORTING it all these years......it made me want to ALERT others to it too!........I NEVER cut anyone DOWN for eating meat......*chuckles*......how could I when I just did the same thing all my life until now?? that would be IDIOTIC. like I wrote and I'll say it one MORE time so its so clear you'd have to be an amoeba not to understand.........
I STARTED THIS THREAD AS AN INFORMATIONAL THREAD FOR PEOPLE WHO WERE LIKE ME AND DIDN'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON OUT THERE IN THE BIG MEAT/DAIRY/PRODUCE WORLD!!!
by that last book of a post, you OBVIOUSLY hadn't read all the posts I wrote.......if you did, you probably wouldn't have written it!!......cuz if you HAD written it in spite of reading all my prior posts then I would have to say something is wrong. I repeatedly keep telling beep and others that I'm trying to inform. NOW.......I may have used words to get others EXCITED.........
like....."some may not care"........and yes, I may have to admit that maybe that would make someone feel alittle guilty.......heck.......I'll admit it........
but........what I was really trying to do was get the ATTENTION of people reading this thread!!........I had to read the IN YOUR FACE BOOK "Skinny Bitch".......in order for my eyes to be jarred open........but jarred open they WERE!! And I thank God for it!!!.......I'm sorry if you perceived my passion as anger.......lol........I am a very COMpassionate person........but, I do get riled up by issues that I feel strongly about!!.......heck......I took the personality test Drella suggested and Ima......INFJ!!......the F is for FEELING!!!
Anyway.......look, I know that a person can't cover ALL the bases in this screwed up world.....I'm not trying to SAVE the world either........BUT.....the more people KNOW about what's really going on out there......the better informed they will be to make wise decisions.
And that's what I was trying to do....................INFORM.
have a nice eve....
THANX AGAIN DRELLA........I can't tell you how much I appreciate you stickin' up for me.......it means alot...
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Old April 21st, 2008, 04:03 AM   #54
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While I don't like the mis treatment of any animal.... I don't have a problem with anyone making money period. If everyone stopped eating meat alot of farmers would be out of work and have to look for other income. The slaughter houses would be out of buisness.
I do think that tougher laws should be inplace to curb the mistreatment of the animals but I don't agree that people should stop eating meat.
A lot of people from my area actually buy a pig or a half a cow from local farmers to support our local towns and you can see first hand the animals are treated very well.
I appreciate your passion I think one of the great things about living in the United States is our right to speak so freely and passionatly about things that are near and dear to our hearts.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 04:22 AM   #55
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[QUOTE]
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While I don't like the mis treatment of any animal.... I don't have a problem with anyone making money period. If everyone stopped eating meat alot of farmers would be out of work and have to look for other income. The slaughter houses would be out of buisness.
That is exactly what they'd want you to think. Trust me, the money is there,, it's just not being allocated properly...

As for slaughterhouses being out of business,, If so, that would save our planet 10X more than pulling every gas guzzling vehicle off the road today...

A cow is worth more alive than dead on your dinner plate,, the math has been done already.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 06:29 AM   #56
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[QUOTE=Drella;142212]
Quote:
That is exactly what they'd want you to think. Trust me, the money is there,, it's just not being allocated properly...

As for slaughterhouses being out of business,, If so, that would save our planet 10X more than pulling every gas guzzling vehicle off the road today...

A cow is worth more alive than dead on your dinner plate,, the math has been done already.
I agree with Drella. Meet, expecially beef, is tremendously inefficient, in that it takes about 42 pounds of grain to produce a single pound of beef. All this while the poor of the world, overseas and here in the U.S., cannot afford wheat and rice and corn anymore.

Outlaw beef? No, but I believe we should all cut back our consumption, and severly cut back. "Live simply so that others may simply live."

IF some people have to find new jobs, or adjust the way they do business, sorry. That may be the price we need to pay so that some other people don't die from starvation.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 01:56 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumpin11 View Post
While I don't like the mis treatment of any animal.... I don't have a problem with anyone making money period. If everyone stopped eating meat alot of farmers would be out of work and have to look for other income. The slaughter houses would be out of buisness.
I do think that tougher laws should be inplace to curb the mistreatment of the animals but I don't agree that people should stop eating meat.
A lot of people from my area actually buy a pig or a half a cow from local farmers to support our local towns and you can see first hand the animals are treated very well.
I appreciate your passion I think one of the great things about living in the United States is our right to speak so freely and passionatly about things that are near and dear to our hearts.
thank you thumpin......and I agree, I never said people should just STOP eating meat, but re-think about WHO they're buying meat from.
what I think would be WONDERFUL is if all the big conglomerate/production style meat/dairy and produce companies turned to a more ORGANIC approach of raising cattle and growing crops. To go BACK to more of the natural way.
it would help the animals, the environment and people to be more healthy!
I realize there are ALWAYS going to be people who eat meat out there....
but remember.......these same big-money food producers are also the ones out there putting pesticides on your fruits and vegetables.......(not to bring in another subject/ but it all goes hand in hand with what I'm talking about)
I just think that over the years, more and more lenience has been granted to these companies. They have gotten SO big, and make SO much money and have SO much influence, that they basically have FREE REIGN to put whatever they want in our foods.......and now putting stuff in there that basically ADDICTS a person to wanting more and more, ensuring that company that THEIR products will continue to be sold. It's a very SUBTLE phenomenon........but, on a grand scale......it has had a HUGE impact on the health of Americans. On the other hand, people make DECISIONS about what they put in their mouths........which all leads me back to the REASON for this thread....
when people are better INFORMED, they can make better decisions.




thank you thumpin for your kind words.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 02:03 PM   #58
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[QUOTE=Drella;142212]
Quote:
That is exactly what they'd want you to think. Trust me, the money is there,, it's just not being allocated properly...

As for slaughterhouses being out of business,, If so, that would save our planet 10X more than pulling every gas guzzling vehicle off the road today...

A cow is worth more alive than dead on your dinner plate,, the math has been done already.

yep, Drella's right.......now that I think of it......if a HUGE amount of people in America protested and decided NOT to eat/drink the products from BIG producers, they would be FORCED to make changes!!.........
If people STOOD UP and voiced their concern with ACTION......I KNOW changes would be made. History PROVES that.

did you know that the ammonia from huge feed lots and slaughterhouses/production dairy companies is responsible for a large part of the pollution emmissions ????.........I have more research to do on this subject, so I can't furnish more info. ,,,,,,but it HAS been proven to be true.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 02:54 PM   #59
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[That is exactly what they'd want you to think. Trust me, the money is there,, it's just not being allocated properly... ]

Your missing my point I am a buisness owner and as such I feel that every american should have a right to make a living with their buisness and its not my job to regulate how they spend it. As I stated before the laws should be changed to keep from mistreating the animals and thats where I think you could get someone to listen and help implament change. From my side its very very very tough to run a buisness that makes a good profit because americans want a good deal on everything. That fact is proven over and over again.
If the farmers all went organic most of the popular vote would be p***ed off because it would cost more to by the food.
As I said before I applaud you guys for your beliefs and your passion behind it. Change is good and I hope you are able to use your passion in a way that helps the industry instead of hurt it.
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Old April 21st, 2008, 03:12 PM   #60
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Animal testing=cruel
Animal cruelty=bad
Meat=tasty, but apparently bad for the environment
Wheat=Good for the environment, but deadly to me
Fruit=good, unless it is in the form of Froot Loops, then see above statement.
Beck=passionate, likes to use ... and caps a lot which makes it take three times longer for me to try to read her posts, but still, passionate individual
This thread=Shows a lot of people like to go off half-cocked. At least I point out when I don't do any research

In summary:
I won't be stopping eating meat. I have great respect for those who do. It's a dietary and lifestyle CHOICE. Meanwhile, I won't stop eating it for two main reasons: One, because it makes up the bulk of my grain-free diet, as grains are deadly to me. Two, because I like tasty slabs of animal meat.

This does make me wonder if hunting specifically for food is considered cruel, as the animals are free range and then killed quickly with as little pain as possible...

It's funny, because some of the things in this thread remind me of when I bought my Honda (and I come from a Ford family and grew up just a couple of miles from the Big 3 auto companies) and people scream at me for having an import vehicle. Then I ask 'So where were your shoes made?' (or just about any other article of clothing) and they look befuddled that I pointed out their hypocrisy, as almost every single time I check, something is not made in the USA.

I applaud anyone who wants to make a change for the 'better,' no matter what the 'better' might be to them. Even if I don't agree with it, I'll support it. I think we all have a right to be happy and if something like not eating meat or only wearing purple socks or only drinking coffee on Tuesdays makes you happy, so be it. Go for it! Just don't get upset when the same things don't make ME happy and try to tell me that I'm wrong because my version of 'better' is different than yours.
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