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Inline Artistic Discussions about artistic skating on inline figure skates.

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Old October 25th, 2007, 08:45 PM   #21
jkaplenk
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: World Traveller and St. Louis, MO
Posts: 434
Default New topic

Yes, I would love to do the video full-time, but do need a real job to pay for my addiction ;-}

We could start a new topic. So I will

Joe

Quote:
Originally Posted by zerio View Post
Dear Joe

such a library is awesome....youve got a treasure with you.regarding SPTEri..I got SPTEriDeluxe on my blades...they are blocks abd heavy .I like them very much indeed.,....and they can last forever..good boots indeed.but very Xpensive.. Althouigh I use CF500 winners which are not cheap either, on my SW frames. We would have so much to talk about tech and skates... I know some BR skaters aregoign to America early Jan. Maybe if theres an inline event I could talk to oneofthe skater about join in...actually Ive already talked about this possibility... Idont think shes going to Paris anymore..but it all depends on VISA...after 911 its been like a via crucis to get a visa.. I fear I deviate the tread subject to other things... Its good to know about the US Federation Inline Skarting and its nice todelegate and share responsabilities Im sure there are numerous expertises upthere in many fields thatcould be valuabletojoinin the Federation... having the Inlines modality above any other insterest and a lot of exposition ,evidence, visibility and blogs and myspace etc aware of the events. Talking baout skating...well...my contemporaneous idols wereDorothy Hammill and Terry Kubika on quads..MichelObrecht... Ive never competed....am always neverous.... Best
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Old October 26th, 2007, 04:22 PM   #22
tguido56
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Hi everybody,
sorry to come late in the discussion.
I take the opportunity to post some old and new information, trying to investigate various different key feature of 3-wheel and 4-wheel skates.
Hoping that it helps.


Wheel baselength
Three wheel figure skates have a baselength (front wheel axle to back wheel axle) close to that of artistic quad plates. Inlines are just a bit longer (say 15-20 mm) than quads, when comparing baselengths of plates for the same boot / foot size.

Let figures speak by themselves.
I wear boots EU 41 or 270-275mm (EDEA and Risport)
I wear quads #16 = 160mm.
My old inlines (Risport) baselength is 175mm.
My Snow Whites, labelled #16 by the producer, are 173mm.
I see that the same boots could even accept Snow Whites #17: 182mm.
I cannot tell about Custom Inlines or Triax. The Customs: I only argue by photos that they seem to have an overall design very close to Snows'.
Snyder Triax (still produced?) appear too to be in the same length range.

In practice the increase in length (versus quads) is only slightly apparent.
The reason: quad wheels are hard and let you feel the whole baselength. Inline wheels are softer: moving the weight "at one end" makes a more sensible effect, as if the skate "ends earlier" than its true length. This is compensated by the additional wheel base.

In conclusion: a 3-wheel skate feels only a bit longer than a quad.
If you are a quad skater, 3-wheels inlines are the natural choice.
The spread of lengths among 3-wheeled frames from different producers is negligible.
This fact is evident from the observation that the back wheel axle stays - for all the models - almost below the boot heel edge.

Four wheel inlines, i.e. PIC Skates, have the rear wheel extending well behind the heel, giving the true extra baselength of an ice figure blade. The ones accustomed to ice skating may desire to have inlines with the same additional stable zone behind the heel.
This is obtained a the expense of having a bulkier skate. Every wheeled skate has a real dimension greater than the wheel base. There is an half wheel-diameter (35mm) of idle length behind the "touching point" on the ground. The rear length may become obtrusive for a 4-wheel skate, particularly for small feet, but this is only a personal thought, not sustained by real testing.

If comfortable baselength AND weight are both key concerns, get a 3-wheels frame of the maximum allowable dimension, so to fully match the boot sole.

Weight
Ligthness is one of the primary concerns for quad skaters and plate producers. Strangely enough exact data on weight are not easily disclosed.
Ice skaters pay less attention to that, since blades are always light, but when switching to inlines - sensibly heavier - the issue should be carefully considered.

Let figures speak again.
I weighted each frame alone with axles included, but w/o toe stop, wheels and bearing.
The Snow White #16, with the new lighter toe stop block, is 257 grams
The old Risport, same lenght, is 293 grams
About the Pro Skate - the ones that Silvia Marangoni used at Worlds - I asked and kindly obtained by the producer the weight of the frame closest in length to the others (168mm). The frame was set as the others - w axles, w/o toe stop, w/o wheels and bearings - and weighted 291 grams.
PICs? I dunno. Certainly not lighter. The PIC-toe-stop should be lighter than a screw stop, but one must add 95-100 grams for the fourth wheel + bearings + axle, and the extra weight of the longer frame.
Custom Inlines V1 and V2? Don't know. Please add figures if you have!
So for lightness Snow Whites win over the others.

In any case the spread of values among different products stays within 50 grams.
Boots can more easily contribute in building a light skate, if needed. A "low end" boot weights at least 150 grams more than a good quality one!

Solidity
Never heard of an inline frame that broke or bent under heavy use. So we can assume that all models are solid and rigid enough.

Rockering
PICs, Custom Inlines and Snow Whites are rockered. The others are not.
Here again I cannot tell very much about PICs, because I dont'have them.
The Customs are the only ones to have a fine adjustment mechanism for rocker.

The (fixed) rockering of Snow Whites is tangible and - I believe - correctly tuned for the habits of ice skaters and maybe also of non-ice skaters. A bit more of rockering could be desirable for figures, a bit less for freeskating. A different wheel selection, if necessary, may contribute to adjust the skates behaviour to special needs.

Flat frames are difficult in steering and in keeping edges. They require vigorous skating, at least. For such reasons I believe that a bit of rockering is always welcomed, regardless of the habits and style of the skater.
Flat frames (say Triax and Pro Skate) can be rockered using the wheel configurations 68mm + 72mm + 72mm, or 72mm + 76mm + 76mm. In both cases the rocker is fixed to 2mm, very close to that pre-built on Snow Whites.

Stable positions
I've heard elsewere in the past the discussion about 3-wheel skates having only two stable positions (only center & rear wheels touching the ground, or only front & central), while PICs have the advantage of three positions.
I really miss the matter. It seems a simplified argument not very much corresponding to reality.
When the skater weight is applied on a three wheel skate, ALL the wheels can touch the ground simultaneously. If not so, this means that the skater is very lean, so softer wheels needs to be applied.
In real use there is always a weight shift towards the heel (when going forward) or the toe (when going backward). These two positions are more often used.
If correct wheels and rockering exist, the "central weight" position is stable for 3-wheeled skates too, as well as any other intermediate distribution of weights. There isn't any sudden change of skate behaviour between the two extreme positions, but on the contrary a smooth transition occours.

Choice of sizes
The PIC Skates are produced in 6 different sizes, but 4 of them have the same wheelbase. (only the smallest of the 6 sizes is shorter and the largest is longer)
The Snow Whites come in 9 truly different sizes, scaled by about 9mm wheelbase length each other.
The Custom Inlines V2 have 3 adult sizes, scaled 15mm each other.
The Pro Skates have 7 sizes scaled by 6mm wheelbase length each other.

Prices
At the moment:
Custom Inlines V2, basic setup w. wheels and toe stops, goes near 300 US$ (430 AU$)
Snow Whites, incl. their best wheels and toe stops, stays at 230 US$
PIC Skates, complete with the same parts, are 360 US$
Pro Skates, w. wheels and toe stop: If I remember correctly they should be around 345 US$


Well, I admit I am a little biased towards Snow Whites. But I also believe that quality / price ratio comes out to be the best one, and that many other features are aligned with the other models.
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Old October 26th, 2007, 07:42 PM   #23
zerio
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Tguido,

thanks very much , Its always important to inform newbies and even veterans about INLINE skates etc...all in all, we always have something to share and something to learn,isnt it cool?


Thanks Tguido your posting is PREMIUM.
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Old October 27th, 2007, 06:55 AM   #24
jkaplenk
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Location: World Traveller and St. Louis, MO
Posts: 434
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Thank you for the excellent discussion and research. This is a writeup that will be an excellent reference.

As far as the three vs two stable points the idea is as follows. With three or four wheels on a rockered frame, and in an ideal situation, only two wheels are ever touching the ground at the same time. When you have four wheels in this scenario then you would have the 1st and 2nd, 2nd and 3rd or 3rd and 4th. This is three positions. When you have three wheels you would have 1st and 2nd or 2nd and 3rd on the floor at the same time which gives two positions.

It gets a little more complicated due to compression. I have found that with my Custom Inline three wheel skates I can get the middle wheel to compress so that I have 3 wheels on the floor at the same time. I can also go to the heel or toe positions. With the Custom Inlines I can adjust the height on the middle wheel so I get this flexibility. It is a very fine and tricky adjustment to get to this point. But this gives me a third position. It also gives me more speed. However, with three wheels on the floor at the same time it is more difficult to edge as was mentioned about the Triax. So I either need to shift to the 1st and 2nd or 2nd and 3rd wheels depending on the edgeing and whether it is forwards or backwards. The compression is also very much dependent on the skater's weight and wheels and is very individual.

I have not noticed the same compression effect on four wheel skates, but I assume it is due to the compression of the wheels and not being able to get the fine adjustment with the four wheel skates that I get with the Custom Inlines. The curve is probably too much to have any effect of compression. If sufficient compression could be present on the four wheel frames then I would have two additional sets of points of contact. They would be 1st, 2nd and 3rd wheels and then 2nd, 3rd and 4th wheels. With my PIC skates I would have to go to very soft wheels, but then that introduces other things to adjust to.

This idea could be extended further so that five wheels on a rockered frame would give you additional options of sets of points of contact. But then length gets in the way and the wheels would have to be smaller, which then effects your speed and other things. This moves towards the idea of an ice blade that has an infinite number of variations of points of contact. Of course if the curve could be designed to take advantage of the compression of a wheel then you would gain back something that was lost as was explained above.

The reality on ice though is that you only generally focus on three points of contact for the blade: the ball of the foot, the heel of the foot and the middle of the blade. You would use the middle of the blade for pushing on strokes. These are your power strokes. So three wheels with a compressed middle wheel will perfect in these situations since this is the power stroke.

I find the point about the ice blade's length vs inline blades very true. I like the long frame for my jumps because I feel much more stable on my takeoffs and landings and it is what I am used to on ice. But the long frame can cause problems with footwork. That is why on ice the dancers have shorter blades. I do prefer the quad skate style of toe stop.

Joe Kaplenk


Quote:
Originally Posted by tguido56 View Post
Hi everybody,
Stable positions
I've heard elsewere in the past the discussion about 3-wheel skates having only two stable positions (only center & rear wheels touching the ground, or only front & central), while PICs have the advantage of three positions.
I really miss the matter. It seems a simplified argument not very much corresponding to reality.
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