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Old June 5th, 2008, 02:24 AM   #21
sk8scott
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Right, but that won't make them turn to oil---just fossilized bones. Which they find near the surface all the time, not thousands of feet underground, and in the gulf, and even the North Sea. How did they get there? Some one mentioned plant life. But all the plants I have ever seen die, just dry up and turn to dust. So where in the World did all those massive pools of oil come from, and why are they only in certain places?? Just seems to make sense to me, that the earth just produces gas and oil as part of it's thing. I got no proof, but it makes more sense to me.
The bones that aren't fossilized become fossilized bones??? If that makes sense to you, then I'd like some of whatever you're...er...having.

The problem with trying to understand oil production in terms of concretely observable phenomena is that it's a process that happens on a geologic time scale. Even if one of us were to sit and watch some decaying plants and animals for 50-100 years, we wouldn't even come close to seeing oil formation. It's a process that may take exponentially longer than a human lifetime. It also makes more sense that oil is only found in certain places, as those would be the locations where the conditions were right for oil to result from decaying organic matter, instead of fossils, consumption, or some other fate.

If you look around you, the world looks flat. It doesn't start looking round until you get far enough away from the surface. We don't have the technology (or live long enough) to show concrete proof of how oil is formed, as compared to the satellite images of our round earth. (If we started a time-lapse film project now, our species might be extinct before it captures the formation of a single drop of oil...and the concept is absurd anyhow because we'd have to somehow film a process that requires a closed, compressed environment.)

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Old June 5th, 2008, 03:06 AM   #22
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The bones that aren't fossilized become fossilized bones??? If that makes sense to you, then I'd like some of whatever you're...er...having.

The problem with trying to understand oil production in terms of concretely observable phenomena is that it's a process that happens on a geologic time scale. Even if one of us were to sit and watch some decaying plants and animals for 50-100 years, we wouldn't even come close to seeing oil formation. It's a process that may take exponentially longer than a human lifetime. It also makes more sense that oil is only found in certain places, as those would be the locations where the conditions were right for oil to result from decaying organic matter, instead of fossils, consumption, or some other fate.

If you look around you, the world looks flat. It doesn't start looking round until you get far enough away from the surface. We don't have the technology (or live long enough) to show concrete proof of how oil is formed, as compared to the satellite images of our round earth. (If we started a time-lapse film project now, our species might be extinct before it captures the formation of a single drop of oil...and the concept is absurd anyhow because we'd have to somehow film a process that requires a closed, compressed environment.)

----Scott
Good try Scott, bu no Cigar Sir----Didn't mean to confuse ya on the bones thing. Plants die, dry up and blow a way. Show me a plant that is still here, that has been dead for even 50 years. and if you do find one, try and squeeze even one drop of oil out of it. I do buy the part of "Not having concrete proof" though. and with out that, it is all just "Theory" And one is just a valuable as the next. They make it sound finite in supply, to justify higher prices. It should be about $.75 a gal, allowing for inflation.
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Old June 5th, 2008, 01:06 PM   #23
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Good try Scott, bu no Cigar Sir----Didn't mean to confuse ya on the bones thing. Plants die, dry up and blow a way. Show me a plant that is still here, that has been dead for even 50 years. and if you do find one, try and squeeze even one drop of oil out of it. I do buy the part of "Not having concrete proof" though. and with out that, it is all just "Theory" And one is just a valuable as the next. They make it sound finite in supply, to justify higher prices. It should be about $.75 a gal, allowing for inflation.
I feel like I'm banging my head against concrete, for some reason.

Sometimes a cigar is a cigar, even if it's not taken out of the box and lit for those who need more evidence. Some cigars are better than others, even if those who don't know cigars can't tell the difference. I don't know much about cigars, but I'm reasonably decent with theories and metaphors.

...and I do agree with you about gas prices. Not sure about the $0.75 figure, and fairly certain that the supply isn't infinite, but I definitely agree that we're getting scammed!

----Scott
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Old June 5th, 2008, 02:29 PM   #24
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it is all just "Theory" And one is just a valuable as the next.
Perhaps you meant “hypothesis?” Regardless, they have differing levels of “value.” Testable hypotheses have more value than untestable hypotheses, and once experimental evidence lends confirmation it is elevated to the status of “theory.” Those are ranked by the amount of experimental evidence backing them up and also by how much predictive power they have.

For instance, gravity is “only” a theory, but I think most would agree it has more predictive power and value than some others.
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Old June 5th, 2008, 05:00 PM   #25
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Perhaps you meant “hypothesis?” Regardless, they have differing levels of “value.” Testable hypotheses have more value than untestable hypotheses, and once experimental evidence lends confirmation it is elevated to the status of “theory.” Those are ranked by the amount of experimental evidence backing them up and also by how much predictive power they have.

For instance, gravity is “only” a theory, but I think most would agree it has more predictive power and value than some others.
I beg to differ Sir--Gravity is a fact---it's exact measurements are at question. Let me know when you drop something, and it doesn't fall towards the center of the earth. Now that is a fact. But thanks for joining in. To hot here to go outside till after dark--so got to do something---except chores.
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Old June 5th, 2008, 05:26 PM   #26
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I beg to differ Sir--Gravity is a fact
Exactly. Something you’re not sure of is rightly called a hypothesis, but once you’re pretty sure it’s gonna work every time, it’s elevated to the status of theory. But the fact is, we don’t yet know what gravity is or how it actually works. (I myself prefer the rubber sheet in four dimensional space interpretation, but to each their own.) We’ve got godawful amounts of observational data on the phenomenon, but Science is a very conservative thing, hesitant to over-reach, so even on that one Science says “Yep, looks that way, but we still don’t have actual proof yet. Keep testing.”

I didn’t mean to go off on you about it, I just get all twisted up inside at the whole “just a theory” thing. Nuthin’ personal.

As to the topic of the thread, I’ve always assumed that the petroleum is comprised of squillions of years worth of biomass, not simply the remains of the giant lizards. But I don’t claim to know (or really care) either way.
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Old June 6th, 2008, 12:11 AM   #27
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Exactly. Something you’re not sure of is rightly called a hypothesis, but once you’re pretty sure it’s gonna work every time, it’s elevated to the status of theory. But the fact is, we don’t yet know what gravity is or how it actually works. (I myself prefer the rubber sheet in four dimensional space interpretation, but to each their own.) We’ve got godawful amounts of observational data on the phenomenon, but Science is a very conservative thing, hesitant to over-reach, so even on that one Science says “Yep, looks that way, but we still don’t have actual proof yet. Keep testing.”

I didn’t mean to go off on you about it, I just get all twisted up inside at the whole “just a theory” thing. Nuthin’ personal.

As to the topic of the thread, I’ve always assumed that the petroleum is comprised of squillions of years worth of biomass, not simply the remains of the giant lizards. But I don’t claim to know (or really care) either way.
The "Just a theory" bit was a quote from the link. did you read it? they don't even try to act like they know anything for a fact, about where oil actually comes from. When I was in grade School, they treated the "Dino theory" as fact, which it ain't. . I sure don't know for sure where it comes from. All I know is that when I go to buy gas, I automatically just drop my pants at the pump, and that's no theory.
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Old June 6th, 2008, 02:37 AM   #28
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All I know is that when I go to buy gas, I automatically just drop my pants at the pump, and that's no theory.
Too much information!!!
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Old June 6th, 2008, 02:47 AM   #29
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As to the topic of the thread, I’ve always assumed that the petroleum is comprised of squillions of years worth of biomass, not simply the remains of the giant lizards. But I don’t claim to know (or really care) either way.
Giant lizards??? I thought that more recent theories have some dinosaur lineages evolving into birds, based on bone structure and fossil evidence of feathers.

Just bustin' your chops! This is yet another example of the malleability of science when faced with new evidence. This ability to adapt to new info makes the scientific method superior to dogma...and, as you point out, conservative when it comes to declaring certainty.

Is the biogenic theory of oil formation a sure thing? Not as far as I can tell. On the other hand, a lot of bright folks who have studied the issue a lot more closely than me seem to think it's a pretty solid theory.

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Old June 6th, 2008, 04:41 AM   #30
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Should we move on to spending billions to find life on Mars??? Or at least water. I know my life would be better knowing there is dampness on Mars.
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