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Roller Derby Forum Discussions about banked-track and flat-track roller derby events, teams, skaters, and training methods.

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Old August 2nd, 2014, 11:11 AM   #21
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This is where id like to see any 4 people stop an elite, even if the skaters trying to stop a jammer are equivelant in skill. I just dont think its possible to be held back by anyone. Just the idea of a few of my friends being stopped by a wall 4 players wide if they were jamming makes me laugh. Let alone even a 3 person style of today.
...
This, and something Mort said earlier, eludes to a good point. If the skaters were better, they would be less likely to put everyone to sleep. Unfortunately, most of the entire (absolutely including Division 1) WFTDA world needs to improve as skaters. The problem is that most of those I've met -who really need improvement- think they're awesome. They seem to live denial of their need to practice fundamental skating skills. That said, Mort, if that "elite" jammer you talked about earlier, didn't have anyone else on the team to help them out, I think 4-elite blockers, well coordinated (with superior lateral movement capabilities while skating backwards), could cycle on that jammer and probably wear them out in a lap or two. But, it would make for more interesting viewing for the spectators. Unfortunately, there are only a relative few in WFTDA with those kinds of skills.
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Old August 2nd, 2014, 11:26 AM   #22
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The rules are too expansive and difficult as it is (This is coming from a person who's reffed for 4 years, coached AND announced)... Adding 'illegal formation' penalties for walls to it would just make it worse.

Its also not anywhere near 'new' forcing the OOP/No Pack has been a strategy since early 2008 or so. In many cases its the easiest way for a jammer to get through; as for making the game more exciting and actionable, thats why penalties were dropped from 1 minute to 30seconds, so it forces teams to go from Offense(still) to Defense(skating) much faster.
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Old August 2nd, 2014, 11:55 AM   #23
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The rules are too expansive and difficult as it is (This is coming from a person who's reffed for 4 years, coached AND announced)... Adding 'illegal formation' penalties for walls to it would just make it worse.

Its also not anywhere near 'new' forcing the OOP/No Pack has been a strategy since early 2008 or so. In many cases its the easiest way for a jammer to get through; as for making the game more exciting and actionable, thats why penalties were dropped from 1 minute to 30seconds, so it forces teams to go from Offense(still) to Defense(skating) much faster.
Any opinion on making penalties fouls like basketball. Commit a foul, go out, a replacement comes in immediately keeping 2 full force teams, and accrue fouls against individual players and eventually foul out.
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Old August 2nd, 2014, 12:35 PM   #24
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Lol. Is that or is that not the total and COMPLETE antithesis of a TEAM sport. Hey, yeah, us four are gonna stay over here. Good luck against their wall and everything.
I know right! Next step is total anarchy and complete hate on the jammer! PIVOT: "Wtf man you scored 6 points last jam! Get on your game!" JAMMER: " Dude there were bodies everywhere! Then while jumping somone you knocked down the other guy smashes me mid air, while you were watching me die. Stop making an obstacle course for me and just get me 6" of room!" rotflol

Kiepur

Yes and no. If speed of the game increases, maybe as its easy to drag someone down at speed, but the problem is slow skating. I played a lil derby the other day, and a good skater friend of mine totally owned me lap after lap, i got him once in a while, but it was impossibly hard cause I had no speed to use against his.(also the other team players were NOT good skaters,) without them nust standing on the inside real good hed dust me.

Packs moving at walking speeds are complete crap. The only way I effectively stopped my bro was to go near or out of pack in the back and sprint as he came around to even the speed up a little more. But then im running everyone over. Skating backwards helped but again the slow pack crippled me.

Are players allowed to sprint with the jammer and "pace line" push him/her? Separate from the pack ya know, intentionally, but make no other contact? Id like to see some of that, as you coukd really do some crazy sh!t. Imagine a waitress move at max speed. Granted most elites in the derby world cant do that move at high- top speed be it lack of skating skills or timing. Funny though as most of us session skaters can easily here even through thick traffic.


I also see many "super star" skaters as they like to think of themselves as barely a mid level skater. Its not from lack of skills usually but the lack of their ability to impliment VERY BASIC skating skills most of the kids at session I skate with already have, it kills me

The other day I plow stopped a jammer and the only reason I didnt stop her is because that blocking during standing still isnt allowed lol. There was plenty of room to sprint around me, and no one was bustin me to help their jammer.

I wanna see our friend go all out at a bout. Shed be killin people. She's 5"10 270ish and can skate almost on par with me backwards. Woman is SICK.
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Old August 3rd, 2014, 07:58 AM   #25
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Any opinion on making penalties fouls like basketball. Commit a foul, go out, a replacement comes in immediately keeping 2 full force teams, and accrue fouls against individual players and eventually foul out.
Would be interesting, but difficult to do with a Jammer. If they were to play like that would be more conducive to a constantly rolling clock (no 2 minute jams; play goes until a 'major' foul/Injury or Official TO) would also necessitate 'every pass scoring' instead of just 2nd pass. You could probably also mandate a 'always forward motion' though mandating speed would be difficult.

It might be fun to mess around with, and HELL of Endurance, but it'd be almost a completely different game.
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Old August 3rd, 2014, 08:30 PM   #26
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Would be interesting, but difficult to do with a Jammer. If they were to play like that would be more conducive to a constantly rolling clock (no 2 minute jams; play goes until a 'major' foul/Injury or Official TO) would also necessitate 'every pass scoring' instead of just 2nd pass. You could probably also mandate a 'always forward motion' though mandating speed would be difficult.
It might be fun to mess around with, and HELL of Endurance, but it'd be almost a completely different game.
Well speed could be chosen by either team at this point, and the opposing team must keep up. Thats how I see it. Sports is about athleticism. Not saying it always needs to go to that, as some really good jammers aren't always the fastest, and it would be in one teams interest to slow the opposing team enough for your jammer to get points without doing full sprints.


Little ranting here.

I can't stand slow packs though. it always seems to end up looking like you got 1 speed skaters and a bunch of slow skaters out there and everyone falls at the smallest hits. - i know there are plenty of teams and players that dont have this problem but as a whole this is the image.

2 minuites, with little to no obstruction, how many laps are you going to really get in? the first lap until you pass people its no points, so realisticly thats going to eat up at least 15 seconds. unless your lapping the jammer thats 4 points per laped pack. How they are getting upwards of 30-45 point jams is just stupid(dunno whats been going on recently). its completely obvious even from a math standpoint there is little skating going on and a whole lot of standing around.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 01:30 AM   #27
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Pure passive offense (leaving jammer out to fend for them selves) is pretty rare these days. As everyone has learned to bridge and maintain an in play pack, along with 30 second penalties and some rules clarifications, the uber boring passive offense is rare. It is still used on occasion, but only works regularly on undisciplined teams or those who have poor lateral movement.

The older tactics of slowing the pack and getting a goat still work fine. In fact, the basic "default strategy" is still what wins.

http://derbygrrrrrl.tumblr.com/post/...irst-but-heres (note: Credit to Pitchit for this.)

I do agree that passive derby was boring and may have confused or turned off some potential audience members. But we seem to be moving forward again (Pun intended).
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Old August 4th, 2014, 07:08 PM   #28
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Lol love it!

I hate how teams just hang their jammer out to dry, its freaking stupid! If I was jamming, had that Ish happen, you know my next target? My own team- (afterall you can smash your own team and get no penalty!), Full speed hip check(or kicking the fug outta their skate!) as I'd be doing a spin to knock them on their asses for letting me get gang banged.

Most seem content to just wall up and stand there. Heck with that, I'd be in there hitting everyoing, causing chaos for their team. Be it jammer, pivot or a blocker. There'd be so much smashing going on there wouldnt be any wall.

They run on their toe stops cause they can't lateral for crap.

Someone tries to run on their toe stops around me they won't get anywhere without help from their team. my plow> your toestops! someones legs will be tired after 2 minuites of pushing my relaxing self around a rink ya know?
A: I don't belive you could stop a jammer with "laterals" alone. not happening, sorry. There is more going on then them just pushiung against your back as you plow.

B: Nearly none of the successful teams in our area leave the jammer to dry. we play a very active offense, and 'man-on' when our jammer is coming through (IE we punch holes in the opponents walls for our jammer)
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Old August 4th, 2014, 07:20 PM   #29
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as a jammer i prefer to be left to fight through the pack, it never lasts long as i can push a wall and it leaves my wall to focus on the opposing jammer, it also keeps pack speed slow meaning im getting more points.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 07:28 PM   #30
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if your really doing man on, then your jamer now had roughly 4 slightly larger obstacles rather than 8 obstacles to get around. Then when theirs comes through a slight separation from the other team clogs things up again. Thats how I always looked at it, once you slow the jammer down some then more than one person can assualt him/her.

I find it harder to get through a full pack when they are actually broken up but in a slightly confined space, as my own team would be getting in the way.

Once they have made it around I'd not worry about them scoring pooints that lap, more so as holding them back. teams have sacraficed players involvement trying to keep the jammer from scoring points by pulling farther ahead in the pack. sure theres times for that too but its done way more than needed.

as for 1 person holding a jammer back, yea I can hold an equal skilled player back for a good bit if their team isn't helping them, provided I knocked them out of bounds where they had to re-enter and loose all their speed, but like I said earlier a slow pack pretty much negates all my skating skills to catch a fast skater, dodging someone sitting still(slow) is so easy.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 09:21 PM   #31
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as a jammer i prefer to be left to fight through the pack, it never lasts long as i can push a wall and it leaves my wall to focus on the opposing jammer, it also keeps pack speed slow meaning im getting more points.
BORING
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Old August 4th, 2014, 09:38 PM   #32
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BORING
then stop going
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Old August 4th, 2014, 10:00 PM   #33
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BORING
I can actually agree with the boring part. Slow derby is no where near as interesting as it was before the age of sausage-derby and other slow derby methods.

That said, so far all attempts to speed up play have been clumsy and full of loopholes which lead to even worse play. Or worse, they make the job of defining a pack and engagement-zone harder, thus distracting refs from their intend job of safety, penalties, and points.

The trouble is this is a skater run sport any changes are run by the skaters and only then can they be implemented. Any fan requests are considered but at the end of the day WFTDA derby is not for the fans it is for the skaters, and most seem to like their stoppers and their walls free to changes speed at will.

'Front is always pack' methods leads to runnaway type strategies, and limiting walls in any manner is asking for trouble with enforcement. Any change would have to be simple to implement and prevent abuse like running away as defense.

Here is an interesting guy who recognizes the problems and offers some solutions but often he himself sees the holes in the concepts. I love reading his stuff, often I learn something new about derby and why we react to the game and its growing pains as a young sport.

Also... USARS. If you hate slow derby play/watch USARS it will cost you more though as it is a franchise based system and is owned and run for profit by corporations, they care a lot more about ratings than players. WFTDA is not the only derby, in fact there is banked track which is a whole 'nother monster.
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Old August 4th, 2014, 10:33 PM   #34
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I can actually agree with the boring part. Slow derby is no where near as interesting as it was before the age of sausage-derby and other slow derby methods.

That said, so far all attempts to speed up play have been clumsy and full of loopholes which lead to even worse play. Or worse, they make the job of defining a pack and engagement-zone harder, thus distracting refs from their intend job of safety, penalties, and points.

The trouble is this is a skater run sport any changes are run by the skaters and only then can they be implemented. Any fan requests are considered but at the end of the day WFTDA derby is not for the fans it is for the skaters, and most seem to like their stoppers and their walls free to changes speed at will.

'Front is always pack' methods leads to runnaway type strategies, and limiting walls in any manner is asking for trouble with enforcement. Any change would have to be simple to implement and prevent abuse like running away as defense.

Here is an interesting guy who recognizes the problems and offers some solutions but often he himself sees the holes in the concepts. I love reading his stuff, often I learn something new about derby and why we react to the game and its growing pains as a young sport.

Also... USARS. If you hate slow derby play/watch USARS it will cost you more though as it is a franchise based system and is owned and run for profit by corporations, they care a lot more about ratings than players. WFTDA is not the only derby, in fact there is banked track which is a whole 'nother monster.
usars, thankfully, is on its way out. they didn't cancel all their regionals for no reason
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Old August 5th, 2014, 08:31 AM   #35
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just at this moment im posting on a basketball forum explaining how the game would be more exciting if the court was made of trampolines and the ball was literally a rock...
the point is that a slow or stationary wall dose a better job of slowing/stopping the jammer then one skating around for the sake of amusing you.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 11:34 AM   #36
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just at this moment im posting on a basketball forum explaining how the game would be more exciting if the court was made of trampolines and the ball was literally a rock...
the point is that a slow or stationary wall dose a better job of slowing/stopping the jammer then one skating aroundfor the sake of amusing you.
Bull. If thats the case for what you have seen then the wall is an amalgamation of poorly skilled skaters/bad coordinated effort.

The faster the pack moves the less times a jammer can lap the pack. If your pack is slow, guess you gotta go with what works.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 01:50 PM   #37
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Bull. If thats the case for what you have seen then the wall is an amalgamation of poorly skilled skaters/bad coordinated effort.

The faster the pack moves the less times a jammer can lap the pack. If your pack is slow, guess you gotta go with what works.
Actually, the slow, almost stopped wall is more effective. The jammer doesn't haven any momentum to use and blockers have more time to position themselves.

I know some crowds are into letting the jammer do all the work. Several times over the past few seasons, the crowd has been on its feet cheering for the jammer to shove the last blocker out of the engagement zone to clear the pack.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 02:40 PM   #38
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Actually, the slow, almost stopped wall is more effective. The jammer doesn't haven any momentum to use and blockers have more time to position themselves.

I know some crowds are into letting the jammer do all the work. Several times over the past few seasons, the crowd has been on its feet cheering for the jammer to shove the last blocker out of the engagement zone to clear the pack.

I know what you guys mean, but you can still smash the wall as long as you hit legal zones. If your a maniac you could transition right through a wall. If they got tight enough where that wasn't going to work, theres room somewhere. Then that depends on the ref's too, some refs would call a back block if someone fell from a fast hard side hit some won't, so you gotta be able to do what ever it takes I guess.

My point is a faster pack that knows how to work together won't have to deal with a jammer if they don't want to, and if they do it will be signifcantly less times.

If its any of my friends who I regularly skate with comming up on a wall we dont need hardly any room, so a stand still wall is near useless (even at any "bottleneck" point on the track). let alone a wall being able to hold while a good skater fouls it all up as the jammer approaches. Granted most people don;t skate like us, we are constantly ripping it up at sessions so our transistions/ dodging skills are damn good( freaking kids! lol).

Not to mention when we play suicide at the rink, god I love that game. that should be what local derby teams should do every once in a while, get 3 teams together and play suicide.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 04:22 PM   #39
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My point is a faster pack that knows how to work together won't have to deal with a jammer if they don't want to, and if they do it will be signifcantly less times.
An article popped up about the PA All Stars with some interesting stats. The PA All Star female team is comprised of female skaters from leagues all over the state. The skaters are primarily from WTFDA leagues, but they will play any rule set (WFTDA, MADE, USARS, RDCL), flat or banked track, male, female or co-ed. The summary of the article was that rule sets that force a fast game have lower scores. But, given equal competition, the percentage of point differential was almost the same.

Would you rather watch scrum style play, or speed skate follow the leader (NASCAR style) type of play? For me, watching speed skate derby gets real boring real quick. Everyone skates fast, skaters follow each other around, and not a lot of points get scored. The team with better cardio tends to win, strategy takes a back seat. Even worse is when a team has to forfeit because they don't have the cardio. It would be like watching NFL players chasing each other for a few hours and whomever didn't pass out is the winner.

Different strokes for different folks.
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Old August 5th, 2014, 06:07 PM   #40
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An article popped up about the PA All Stars with some interesting stats. The PA All Star female team is comprised of female skaters from leagues all over the state. The skaters are primarily from WTFDA leagues, but they will play any rule set (WFTDA, MADE, USARS, RDCL), flat or banked track, male, female or co-ed. The summary of the article was that rule sets that force a fast game have lower scores. But, given equal competition, the percentage of point differential was almost the same.

Would you rather watch scrum style play, or speed skate follow the leader (NASCAR style) type of play? For me, watching speed skate derby gets real boring real quick. Everyone skates fast, skaters follow each other around, and not a lot of points get scored. The team with better cardio tends to win, strategy takes a back seat. Even worse is when a team has to forfeit because they don't have the cardio. It would be like watching NFL players chasing each other for a few hours and whomever didn't pass out is the winner.

Different strokes for different folks.
It seems as though if people do start passing-out, that might incite a crowd... It does go back to Derby's roots which were completely about enduring the skate and getting knocked-down.
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