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Old May 18th, 2019, 01:45 PM   #1
fierocious1
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Default nothing wrong with shimming

DA45s. Or removing thickness between the plate and the cushion.
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Old May 18th, 2019, 03:02 PM   #2
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Default nope

I have had to cut cushions down to get them to fit.
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Old May 18th, 2019, 11:27 PM   #3
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Well, that depends, eventually you'll cause the yoke to not sit evenly on the cushions.

Arguably this is some of the reason why the change on steering happens.

I always just try to get it to sit flat.
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Old May 19th, 2019, 05:19 PM   #4
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The amount of shimming that I do is minute. No issues with skates sitting flat. But can change the attitude especially if skating a long frame vs a short frame or if you are skating lower speeds vs high speeds. Then change the duro
of cushions as needed. Usually, changes are easier to do when slowing down response than to speed it up. If there were a way to readily change pivot angle easily other than shimming, I would go that route, but there isn't and it really works for a personal tune on plate/response tuning. But it doesn't work on more verticle KP designs because of trucks getting jacked out of the pivot cups.

Thought I would start something in here since it is too quiet for some people.....
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Old May 19th, 2019, 11:05 PM   #5
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Shimming is all and only about the pivot pin.
SA or DA if the hanger isn't parallel to the plate the pivot pin will not work or move properly in it's cup.
Adjustable pivot pins are great, unless the adjustment they offer isn't enough, for example I run cones top and bottom, the cones are shorter than barrels, so I use 1/2 and 1 mm plastic shims to get the hanger closer to parallel with the plate and the adjustable pivot pin can make an exact placement.
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Old May 20th, 2019, 06:38 AM   #6
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Changing the height of the plate side cushion will make differences to how the plate steers. This is because of the way the compression starts to be applied to the truck yoke by the plate side cushion.

Personally think this has a lot less to do with the pivot pin and more to do with the truck yoke ange vs the plate. By adding or removing height of the plate side cushion you will make the yoke sit either dead flat on the cushion and be on the same angle as the kingpin.

Decreased height will effectively reduce the kingpin angle. As well as make a small gap between the kingpin and the ivor pin, which changes the room/resistance there and doesnt allow the truck to turn as much.

When you increase the height over the point of where the yoke sits flat on a cushion it will effectively increase the angle the yoke sits on because it will begin to tilt the other way on the kingpin compared to a decreased height. Additionally there will be slightly more room on the other side of the truck yoke this way. This will allow the truck to twist more on the assembly as well. So the steering for given plate lean will increase.

This is considering you aren't cranking cushions WAY down which would practically negate any shimmying effect one would do. I know you don't, just saying if someone did, their results wouldn't be the same as yours.

Pivot angle is barely a difference when you consider the other conditions you are changing in a plate assembly when shimming cushion being up or down.

The other thing I would guess is after you get past a certain amount of plate lean the plates will turn more like a unchanged cushion height(where unchanged means level and yoke is perpendicular to the kingpin). I don't know how much lean that would take before they started to turn the same though.
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Old May 20th, 2019, 11:54 AM   #7
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Changing the height of the plate side cushion will make differences to how the plate steers. This is because of the way the compression starts to be applied to the truck yoke by the plate side cushion.

What's a side cushion?
What's a yoke?


Personally think this has a lot less to do with the pivot pin and more to do with the truck yoke ange vs the plate. By adding or removing height of the plate side cushion you will make the yoke sit either dead flat on the cushion and be on the same angle as the kingpin.

Decreased height will effectively reduce the kingpin angle. As well as make a small gap between the kingpin and the ivor pin, which changes the room/resistance there and doesnt allow the truck to turn as much.

What's an ivor pin?

When you increase the height over the point of where the yoke sits flat on a cushion it will effectively increase the angle the yoke sits on because it will begin to tilt the other way on the kingpin compared to a decreased height. Additionally there will be slightly more room on the other side of the truck yoke this way. This will allow the truck to twist more on the assembly as well. So the steering for given plate lean will increase.

This is considering you aren't cranking cushions WAY down which would practically negate any shimmying effect one would do. I know you don't, just saying if someone did, their results wouldn't be the same as yours.

Pivot angle is barely a difference when you consider the other conditions you are changing in a plate assembly when shimming cushion being up or down.

What's pivot angle?
Either the pivot pin is seated properly or it isn't, using shims to raise the hanger or removing urethane from a cushion to lower the hanger to adjust a non adjustable pivot pin is pretty basic, or to aid adjustment to an adjustable pivot pin.


The other thing I would guess is after you get past a certain amount of plate lean the plates will turn more like a unchanged cushion height(where unchanged means level and yoke is perpendicular to the kingpin). I don't know how much lean that would take before they started to turn the same though.
~
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Old May 20th, 2019, 05:09 PM   #8
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Default Semantics? Really?

Really?

You couldn't read well enough to see "plate side cushion" where I refer to the cushion that sits against the baseplate? Ya know, so ther is not confusion between top/bottom cushion...You're kidding right?

I know you've seen the terminology around here before. The yoke of the truck is where the cushion sits. Much like a wagon which you hook horses up to has a yoke that the horse goes in.

You dont know or could not deduce that ivor was pivot? Lmao are you serious? Hahahaha my phone has a screen protector that doesnt always read the P and A key when I press it.

Adding or removing shims/washers to adjust non adjustable pivot pins and shimming the pivot cup is not what's being discussed here.

It's already presumed that fierocious1 knows how to correctly adjust the pivot pins on his plate. I guess you didnt know he has adjustable pivots on his skate? He isnt shimming for fixing the position of the pivot pin so it sits in the cup correctly. He is shimming to change the steering input/output of the plate. He believes it's the changes in the angle of the pivot pin in relation to the kingpin and plate that causes the difference. It's more to do with the cushion stack and how that trucks yoke sits on those cushions.

As you elevate or decrease the height of the cushion it changes the way the truck yoke sits in relation to the kingpin. This is part of what makes it steer more or less. You essentially change the angle the truck yoke is sitting on. Decreasing the height from where it would sit flat starts to move the yoke to less of a degree. Increasing the height of the plate side cushions from where everything sits flat will make the plate behave like it has more kingpin angle.


I can drawn some pictures if youd like, ya know with descriptions and all that since you.must have missed docs class. They're trucks btw not hangers. Lol
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Old May 20th, 2019, 11:56 PM   #9
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Really?

You couldn't read well enough to see "plate side cushion" where I refer to the cushion that sits against the baseplate? Ya know, so ther is not confusion between top/bottom cushion...You're kidding right?

I know you've seen the terminology around here before. The yoke of the truck is where the cushion sits. Much like a wagon which you hook horses up to has a yoke that the horse goes in.

You dont know or could not deduce that ivor was pivot? Lmao are you serious? Hahahaha my phone has a screen protector that doesnt always read the P and A key when I press it.

Adding or removing shims/washers to adjust non adjustable pivot pins and shimming the pivot cup is not what's being discussed here.

It's already presumed that fierocious1 knows how to correctly adjust the pivot pins on his plate. I guess you didnt know he has adjustable pivots on his skate? He isnt shimming for fixing the position of the pivot pin so it sits in the cup correctly. He is shimming to change the steering input/output of the plate. He believes it's the changes in the angle of the pivot pin in relation to the kingpin and plate that causes the difference. It's more to do with the cushion stack and how that trucks yoke sits on those cushions.

As you elevate or decrease the height of the cushion it changes the way the truck yoke sits in relation to the kingpin. This is part of what makes it steer more or less. You essentially change the angle the truck yoke is sitting on. Decreasing the height from where it would sit flat starts to move the yoke to less of a degree. Increasing the height of the plate side cushions from where everything sits flat will make the plate behave like it has more kingpin angle.


I can drawn some pictures if youd like, ya know with descriptions and all that since you.must have missed docs class. They're trucks btw not hangers. Lol
I don't have to make any adjustments to pivot pin with changes in the angle of a DA45 truck. The height or thickness between the plate and truck, if it is changed, also changes pivot angle( what mechanically changes the reaction). Cushions are just that, dampeners, they make you comfortable when all is well. Steering is controlled by pivot angle or caster, cushions allow the reaction to be controlled to the skaters preference. Simple if a person can separate caster from dampening. On steeper kp angles you only have cushions to adjust and some have pivot height, that's it.

Arius, totally different, cushions are everything on those, pivot angle is fixed and cannot be manipulated.
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Old May 21st, 2019, 01:22 AM   #10
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I don't have to make any adjustments to pivot pin with changes in the angle of a DA45 truck. The height or thickness between the plate and truck, if it is changed, also changes pivot angle( what mechanically changes the reaction). Cushions are just that, dampeners, they make you comfortable when all is well. Steering is controlled by pivot angle or caster, cushions allow the reaction to be controlled to the skaters preference. Simple if a person can separate caster from dampening. On steeper kp angles you only have cushions to adjust and some have pivot height, that's it.

Arius, totally different, cushions are everything on those, pivot angle is fixed and cannot be manipulated.
Arius plates matter not what cushion is in them. It has no influence in the turn vs lean of the plate.

What changes the turn rate for lean is how precise the hinge is. With worn parts it doesnt turn as fast because of slop. With everything new and even more so with modified parts it will turn more for a given plate lean.

Anywhoo back to your plate.

The pivot just supports the truck, it doesnt change the steering.

If you were able to only adjust the pivot angle without the need to shim the plate side cushion to adjust the height up/down and it resulted in change to steering, I'd be far more inclined to believe that your "caster" adjustment is solely what is making the difference.

The way the cushions interact with the trucks yoke matters alot in how the truck itself behaves. When you adjust the height of the cushion you cant help but change the way pressure develops on the cushions. This is what changes the steering feedback.
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Old May 21st, 2019, 12:20 PM   #11
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Quote:
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Arius plates matter not what cushion is in them. It has no influence in the turn vs lean of the plate.

What changes the turn rate for lean is how precise the hinge is. With worn parts it doesnt turn as fast because of slop. With everything new and even more so with modified parts it will turn more for a given plate lean.

Anywhoo back to your plate.

The pivot just supports the truck, it doesnt change the steering.

If you were able to only adjust the pivot angle without the need to shim the plate side cushion to adjust the height up/down and it resulted in change to steering, I'd be far more inclined to believe that your "caster" adjustment is solely what is making the difference.

The way the cushions interact with the trucks yoke matters alot in how the truck itself behaves. When you adjust the height of the cushion you cant help but change the way pressure develops on the cushions. This is what changes the steering feedback.
The pivot adjustment doesn't change the steering, correct, it is the anchor for the changes by shimming the upper cushion. It is the beginning, "pivot point" that doesn't change while the truck's angle is changed.
There are changes in cushion setup that others have not been investigated by many. Biasing on cushion setups work on DA45s. Using different duro cushions above and below the yoke definitely produces different results in handling, it just doesn't work on other plates. I need to come up with a descriptor on "other" plates. The changes become even more obvious with taller cushions(more than .400).
Shorter cushions minimize a lot of the changes but the changes do still affect handling.

Edit: also, if you are of any weight at all and running softer cushions, your weight alone varies the caster from loaded to unloaded plates, as in sitting on the table or being stood on.
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Old May 21st, 2019, 12:43 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Really?

You couldn't read well enough to see "plate side cushion" where I refer to the cushion that sits against the baseplate? Ya know, so their is no t confusion between top/bottom cushion...You're kidding right?

If you mean the lower cushion, say "lower cushion", if you mean the upper cushion, say "upper cushion"

I know you've seen the terminology around here before. The yoke of the truck is where the cushion sits. Much like a wagon which you hook horses up to has a yoke that the horse goes in.

If you mean Hanger, say "Hanger"

Yoke
noun
1. a wooden crosspiece that is fastened over the necks of two animals and attached to the plow or cart that they are to pull.
synonyms: harness, collar, coupling, tackle, tack, equipage
"the horses were loosened from the yoke"
2. a part of a garment that fits over the shoulders and to which the main part of the garment is attached, typically in gathers or pleats.

If you don't know what a hanger is just ask.



You dont know or could not deduce that ivor was pivot? Lmao are you serious? Hahahaha my phone has a screen protector that doesnt always read the P and A key when I press it.

I know what a pivot pin is, I have no idea what a "ivor" is, after "Plate side cushion" and "Yoke" I assumed you were just making up whatever came to mind at the moment, Mort, don't assume other live in a world of "chaos"
noun
complete disorder and confusion.
"snow caused chaos in the region"
synonyms: disorder, disarray, disorganization, confusion, mayhem, bedlam, pandemonium, madness, havoc, turmoil, tumult, commotion, disruption, upheaval, furor, frenzy, uproar, hue and cry, babel, hurly-burly;



Adding or removing shims/washers to adjust non adjustable pivot pins and shimming the pivot cup is not what's being discussed here.

Adding or subtracting "shims" to adjust the pivot pin, be it an adjustable pivot pin or a non-adjustable pivot pin is exactly what's being discussed here, if the hanger isn't parallel to the plate the pivot pin won't sit in it's cup properly, shimming the hanger into position is the discussion.
Running the hanger out of parallel to the plate may sound sexy, but it the pivot pin is hindered or bound, the sex is dry.



It's already presumed that fierocious1 knows how to correctly adjust the pivot pins on his plate. I guess you didnt know he has adjustable pivots on his skate? He isnt shimming for fixing the position of the pivot pin so it sits in the cup correctly. He is shimming to change the steering input/output of the plate. He believes it's the changes in the angle of the pivot pin in relation to the kingpin and plate that causes the difference. It's more to do with the cushion stack and how that trucks yoke sits on those cushions.

If you look at the title of the thread and read the first post, the OP doesn't mention pivot pins, you may assume the OP knows how to properly adjust a pivot pin, but, Who knows?
This thread started as another of the OP's threads that require the reader to guess, other threads comes to mind, one about inventions and patents, or one about measurements of squishing cushions, "pure science", anyway, if this thread is about the increase or decrease in skate control by adding a 1/2mm shim, can't wait for the purely scientific measurements, great, glad to get to the bottom of the extremely dry well.


As you elevate or decrease the height of the cushion it changes the way the truck yoke hanger sits in relation to the kingpin. This is part of what makes it steer more or less. You essentially change the angle the truck yoke hanger is sitting on. Decreasing the height from where it would sit flat starts to move the yoke hanger to less of a degree. Increasing the height of the plate side cushions lower cushion from where everything sits flat will make the plate behave like it has more kingpin angle.

It's like reading white noise.....of course adding to or subtracting from the height of the cushions changes the king pin angle, but, if the pivot pin isn't seated properly, it won't pivot properly, shims are great....for adjusting the pivot pin.



I can drawn some pictures if you'd like, ya know with descriptions and all that since you must have missed docs class. They're trucks btw not hangers. Lol
Yes, get out your etch-a-sketch and have at it.
Truck's consist of
Plate
Hanger
Axles
Kingpin's
Yokes are on you


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Old May 22nd, 2019, 02:45 AM   #13
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You list a skateboard part. We are on roller skate parts buddy. I know it's hard for your

Google search skateboard hanger, you'll get a part that allows you to hang a skateboard from the wall.

Google search skate trucks or how about this?
https://www.skates.com/Roller-Skate-...s-s/244490.htm
Or

https://www.conniesskateplace.com/El...ant-wrench.htm this wrench adjusts the truck bolt

Oh look, a skate truck
https://www.medusaskates.com/Powerdy...lates-p/c4.htm

Search around if you like. No one calls them hangers. Its truck. Rotflol
Here are the exact things we are talking about.

https://www.derbywarehouse.com/Sure-...ge-DA45TK.html
Oo look it's a TRUCK

Which way is up? Plate side cushion gives no room for error, as it is identified as the cushion against the plate side of the truck. While most people will think the upper cushion is between the truck and the baseplates there are others out there who identify upper as the floor side cushion, since it is in the up position when working on skates.

A more important question is why are you even challenging already set in stone terminology, for what? To derail a thread like usual.

I said
***
Adding or removing shims/washers to adjust non adjustable pivot pins and shimming the pivot cup is not what's being discussed here.

*** and you didnt read and comprehend for crap.... so you say...

"Adding or subtracting "shims" to adjust the pivot pin, be it an adjustable pivot pin or a non-adjustable pivot pin is exactly what's being discussed here, if the hanger isn't parallel to the plate the pivot pin won't sit in it's cup properly, shimming the hanger into position is the discussion.
Running the hanger out of parallel to the plate may sound sexy, but it the pivot pin is hindered or bound, the sex is dry."

The trucks dont sit parallel to the plate. The yoke sits perpendicular to the kingpin when a cushion of the correct height is used between the plate and truck(plate side cushion) adding and subtracting height changes that.

What is being discussed here is when fierocious1 adjusts the height of the plate side cushion with shims it changes the angle of the pivot pin in relation to where it normally sits going into the baseplate. The pivot pin stays in nearly the exact same location due to the way the plate is made when this adjustment is made.

Since you obviously can't seem to keep up here, maybe you shouldn't sh!tpost. 🤨🤔😂 Just sit this one out and go cry about Russia some more.
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Old May 22nd, 2019, 01:26 PM   #14
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Mort, honey, calm down, We can see the smoke coming out of your ears from NH.

That first link is great.

https://www.skates.com/Roller-Skate-...s-s/244490.htm

Half way down the page they give you a choice of all the HANGERS Sure Grip offers, and some after market one's also.

Actually, the OP isn't discussing anything here, you are, and I'm pointing out the actual use for spacers on the King Pin, which is to make micro-adjustments of the pivot pin, otherwise this would be just another non-sense thread.
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Old May 22nd, 2019, 09:41 PM   #15
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Mort, honey, calm down, We can see the smoke coming out of your ears from NH.

That first link is great.

https://www.skates.com/Roller-Skate-...s-s/244490.htm

Half way down the page they give you a choice of all the HANGERS Sure Grip offers, and some after market one's also.

Actually, the OP isn't discussing anything here, you are, and I'm pointing out the actual use for spacers on the King Pin, which is to make micro-adjustments of the pivot pin, otherwise this would be just another non-sense thread.

The only one here confused is you buddy. No smoke lol you really think I care much what you think? I'm at least helping the blind(you) see you are wrong. The only frustration is that you cant see you are. Which is more entertaining than anything.

Further down the page is a listing for a "hanger" which is not a truck. Its for plates that have a baseplate>hanger>truck. I'm sure you understand this, but want to argue for the sake of arguing for whatever reason.

Correct geometry of a skate plate will have the pivot pin seated center in the pivot cup, just touching, and the truck yoke sitting centered and perpendicular to the kingpin. By shimming the plate side cushions height up or down you get a change in the way the cushions interact with the truck yoke.

On da45 plates the change in pivot on location iin the cupis extremely small, and has no effect here. On lower kingpin angles it makes a much larger difference, and you almost cant run a different cushion height than what the plate is designed for. Like more than 1mm either way and it's not going to sit correctly , adjustable pin or not.

Maybe he will show pictures so you can catch up to reality. His plate has no "hangers" it's a baseplate, kingpins and trucks. Sorry for your misinformation bro.
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Old June 6th, 2019, 11:10 AM   #16
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The only one here confused is you buddy. No smoke lol you really think I care much what you think? I'm at least helping the blind(you) see you are wrong. The only frustration is that you cant see you are. Which is more entertaining than anything.

Further down the page is a listing for a "hanger" which is not a truck. Its for plates that have a baseplate>hanger>truck. I'm sure you understand this, but want to argue for the sake of arguing for whatever reason.

Correct geometry of a skate plate will have the pivot pin seated center in the pivot cup, just touching, and the truck yoke sitting centered and perpendicular to the kingpin. By shimming the plate side cushions height up or down you get a change in the way the cushions interact with the truck yoke.

On da45 plates the change in pivot on location iin the cupis extremely small, and has no effect here. On lower kingpin angles it makes a much larger difference, and you almost cant run a different cushion height than what the plate is designed for. Like more than 1mm either way and it's not going to sit correctly , adjustable pin or not.

Maybe he will show pictures so you can catch up to reality. His plate has no "hangers" it's a baseplate, kingpins and trucks. Sorry for your misinformation bro.
Mort I have to hand it to you bud. You do understand.no telling how many times I have explained it and most never do get it.
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Old June 7th, 2019, 03:52 AM   #17
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Mort I have to hand it to you bud. You do understand.no telling how many times I have explained it and most never do get it.
You mean to say I understand ? Or don't? Lol now I am confused. **edit** sorry it was jumbled up and I just got off work lol, I think I follow now.

I first noticed this anomaly when I fixed up the geometry on a set of vanilla plates. I didnt really change the compression much and at the time didnt even use grease on his skates. But the way the truck yoke made contact with the cushions changed, so it changed the way the trucks liked to steer. This was mainly to do with the way the truck NJ was trying to compress the cushions, and the cushions weren't allowing the truck to turn in the way they should have.

Even though the truck was now in better contact with the cushions, which I figured would feel MORE stable, it wasn't to him. It felt squirrelly as all get out. Because it could turn like intended lol. I also put flat washers on instead of cupped retainers.

It's funny how small a difference it takes to change the way the truck behaves. Makes me kinda want to experiment with angling cushions for more extreme mods.
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Old June 7th, 2019, 12:02 PM   #18
fierocious1
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Originally Posted by Mort View Post
You mean to say I understand ? Or don't? Lol now I am confused. **edit** sorry it was jumbled up and I just got off work lol, I think I follow now.

I first noticed this anomaly when I fixed up the geometry on a set of vanilla plates. I didnt really change the compression much and at the time didnt even use grease on his skates. But the way the truck yoke made contact with the cushions changed, so it changed the way the trucks liked to steer. This was mainly to do with the way the truck NJ was trying to compress the cushions, and the cushions weren't allowing the truck to turn in the way they should have.

Even though the truck was now in better contact with the cushions, which I figured would feel MORE stable, it wasn't to him. It felt squirrelly as all get out. Because it could turn like intended lol. I also put flat washers on instead of cupped retainers.

It's funny how small a difference it takes to change the way the truck behaves. Makes me kinda want to experiment with angling cushions for more extreme mods.
Yep you understand. Its not extreme amounts of thickness that makes a difference. I haven't had true 45 degee trucks to work with but it would produce the same results. I like my setup so really no need to change anything. Besides way too busy now to experiment with making new plates.
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