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Old July 26th, 2013, 06:48 PM   #1
ajasen
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Default 110s for learning to speedskate?

It seems that 110s are the new 100s and I see a couple of 15mph skaters posting here that use 110s. I am a 14-15 mph skater over 20k, and I'm starting to get bitten by the big wheel bug. I'm also swatting that bug away, saying that the funnest part of skating right now is feeling/learning how to fall and push with increasing force and efficiency.

I wonder if ppl find that 110s are ok for learning basic technique, or it's better to do that for a couple of years on 100s first, and then mess with big wheels? Or maybe that switching it up from day to day is even better, and lets you find new ways of improving?

I also wonder if 110s end up strengthening your pushing and ankle stabilizing muscles better than 100s?

I guess I'm just curious for the different sensations of skating on 110s (even if they suck a bit and make you work harder). I probably skate mostly for the kinesthetic pleasure of it.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 07:15 PM   #2
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I wish I could comment with useful insight on your 100/110 question. I'm not really familiar enough with those specifics other than my own experience... which woud be 'go for 110s' if your legs are long enough and strong enough.

One thing which might interest you... if your 3pt 100 frame is long enough you could tweak it a tiny bit to get 105s to fit. I did this for my wife and now she keeps up with us in roll, where before on 100s she didn't. She was concerned about extra weight on her foot/leg until I showed her that brand new Bont HR 105s weighed the same as very slightly worn Bont HR 100s.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 08:06 PM   #3
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Would a 3 point 110 be better than a 5 point 90mm (or 84mm) setup? I was under the assumption that more rolling wheel points were faster....

I know that 4 x 56mm are much faster than 2 x 60 in aggressive skates from personal experience.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 08:15 PM   #4
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Quote:
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Would a 3 point 110 be better than a 5 point 90mm (or 84mm) setup? I was under the assumption that more rolling wheel points were faster....

I know that 4 x 56mm are much faster than 2 x 60 in aggressive skates from personal experience.
From what I understand, the 5x90 set ups roll about as well as the 4x110 set ups. The 3x110s are generally for smaller skaters, to allow them to get the same kind of roll as the 4x100s, but for people with smaller feet that can push a 110mm wheel but need a 165mm boot mounting.

I jumped from a 4x90 to a 4x110. It took a couple of sessions to get used to the difference, but you can still work technique on a 4x110. The question is whether you have the power to effectively push a 4x110 versus a 4x100. Roll is the difference. I have been beaten in races by guys on 4x100 setups. I don't know if it matters between wheel size unless you are at the top of the game and need the extra roll.

S-Frames are cheap, so why not get a used one and a set of 110mm wheels to see if you like it. Otherwise, it won't kill you to stay on a 4x100. You won't see a big speed increase just by moving up. Actually, you may see an initial speed decrease before you return to normal. You can learn technique just as well with the bigger wheels but it takes more strength.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:13 PM   #5
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Quote:
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Would a 3 point 110 be better than a 5 point 90mm (or 84mm) setup? I was under the assumption that more rolling wheel points were faster....
you've got a slight misunderstanding of '3 point'. Bont makes a boot style (well... two styles now 3pt and 3PF) in which the frame mounts to the boot at 3 bolt locations rather than the 2 bolt industry standards (165mmm or 195mm).

The discussion here (I think) is about comparing 4 wheel setups.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:40 PM   #6
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Ahhh..... understood. I'm woefully ignorant in the speed skate terminology. Thanks for the clarification.
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Old July 26th, 2013, 09:56 PM   #7
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I'm woefully ignorant in the speed skate terminology
yeah, well... that is painfully obvious. Stick to what you know, buddy. Go soak in a meltdown, will ya! And take your popcorn with you.






to those unaware... all in good fun. spillover from elsewhere!
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Old July 27th, 2013, 12:31 AM   #8
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I love my hi lows, get nearly all the roll of a 4x110 without the deck height or length.

Personally I think most new skaters are better off on the smaller wheels but ego gets in the way.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 12:42 AM   #9
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I'm no decent skater... But I like my 4X110 set up much better than my previous 4X100. I moved from 5X84 rec skates to 4X100 (13.2" magnesium) on my Z's for a year and I was told I would be better off on 4X110 by some really knowledgable skater/coaches I'm lucky enough to skate with. They were right. I find it easier to work on fundamentals with this setup. And I'm generally more comfortable. It felt right immediately.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 03:15 AM   #10
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Personally I think most new skaters are better off on the smaller wheels...
just wondering... do you feel your comment applies to ajasen who asked about 100 vs 110 for learning "basic technique" for speed? He mentioned 14-15 mph over 20k (which I'm assuming means 20km), and that's not shabby for a 'beginner'
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Old July 27th, 2013, 04:30 AM   #11
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Quote:
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just wondering... do you feel your comment applies to ajasen who asked about 100 vs 110 for learning "basic technique" for speed? He mentioned 14-15 mph over 20k (which I'm assuming means 20km), and that's not shabby for a 'beginner'
The word "new" was probably not the best word.

I think 30klm an hour for 10klm is about the mark to be looking at 4x110 unless you are 6 feet tall with size 12 feet but everybody is different and skates differently.

I know it's hard to see all the fast skaters using the big wheels and wondering if the reason you can't go with them is because of the equipment but its not. The fast skaters are fast on any set up.

I went up to a 4x110 set up when I had a 20klm cruise speed and 40lkm top speed and found it was too much too soon, hence the hi low set up now.

At the last race meet one of the guys (rich71 on this forum) who works interstate left his skates behind and broke out his 5x90 set up for the day. Old wheels with no flex bands and no time to adjust his form to the differnt set up and he still set a 200 meter time trial within a couple of tenths of a second of normal and was every bit as competitive in all the races. He was complaining about lack of roll but it really didn't make a difference to his results or speed.

If you plan on getting there eventually then it won't hurt to try them out but it is not a magic formula that will add 5klm an hour to your speed.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 05:17 AM   #12
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i am with cass38a on his recommendation to give a 3x110+100 a try. They are a nice mix with a lot of the benefit of a full 110 set-up, but are noticably more managable.
FOr ajasen, who is working for a race in Sept., i think he would have enough time to easily adapt to them by that time.
Just remember, don't get sloppy.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 06:57 AM   #13
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Thx for those replies. I had unexpectedly good skate today, so I'm kindof feeling: "just keep getting faster on 100s".

When I work up to sustained cruising at 17mph on 100s i think that's a good time to treat myself to new equipment! (Tho I wonder if people will even still be on 110 then, lol).
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Old July 27th, 2013, 12:48 PM   #14
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I have a 27X mm frame on my rec skates, it houses 80mm wheels. I have used 72-80mm wheel sets in it. The wheelbase staying he same, the larger wheels are harder to push than the smaller ones. The top speed is effected, but its not that much. On a set of moderately worn 76mm wheels(73-74mm id guess) in a straight I can manage 28mph. I should test some brand new labeda grippers on that same skate, just to see how it goes. I'm thinking I may be able to hit 30.

If you buy a large 4x110 frame you can use 100's on it and no have to deal with anything different except frame length.

As for top speed of a particular wheel size you cant really say, however a larger wheel with an equal height, frame lenght(wheelbase), and orientation to the ball of the foot, will be nearly the same speed.

Frame length matters of course but a shorter frame with an equal length sticking past the ball of the foot is going to be very close to the same speed of a longer frame setup with the front wheels being in the same location.

The skater matters too as we all know.
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Old July 27th, 2013, 10:27 PM   #15
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If you buy a large 4x110 frame you can use 100's on it and no have to deal with anything different except frame length.
A 100 mm frame with 100mm wheels has a deck height 5mm lower than a 110mm frame with 100mm wheels.

5mm in deck height makes a huge difference (Taiwanese skaters think different to the majority)
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Old August 5th, 2013, 05:15 AM   #16
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Would definitely recommend trying a hi-lo set up before you do anything. Most skaters that skate at my club generally seem to use 4by100 frame and once their very confident and are looking for more roll they go up to larger frame.
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Old August 8th, 2013, 11:29 PM   #17
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Q re: 110's - they are harder to push around for many skaters. The speeds you are skating now are less relevant than the technique you posses when answering the Q: "when to step up to 110's?" Any deficiencies you have on 80mm, 90mm, 100m will be surely be amplified on larger wheels. As you go up in height you also increase the bodies lean angles. So, 110's demand very good technique, and the strength to muscle them(maneuver) unless you're immune to the side-effects of bad technique(blisters and boots rubbing, collapsing ankles, etc. ). If you're a pretty solid skater(technically) then up-ing to 110's won't be that drastic of a change, but for many that struggle already just to get on the top of the wheels it will be even more so a battle. Having good technique makes the transition to 110's easier, there is no question. For someone learning on speedskates, even coming from 80's or 90's, the 100's will feel award and tough to manage. Put them on 110's and most of their time will be spent correcting basic skating technique. Certainly one can learn on 110's, but it demands more balance & agility skills and strength, and patience to master good skating technique. I personally feel the time to move to 110's is when the skater is ready technically to make the move, and has achieved the most from their current skate set-up (4x100's) rather than learn to skate 110's and hope they can eventually learn to skate them. I guess my viewpoint would be to omit frustration from the experience. The epxerience will be far more enjoyable and rewarding if the skater making the transition has decent skills, otherwise it just sets them up for more bad technique on bigger wheels, without gaining any real headway, maybe even set-backs when not being able to handle the larger frames due to lack of skills or strength to skate them.

re: 5x90's(14.4") they are heavy, and longer, taking much more strength to turn/maneuver than even the 4x110's - that is due to the longer frame length. 5x84's are easier with a shorter frame length(13.0" / 13.2") - similar to the frame length of 4x110's, but with smaller, lighter wheels & lower wheel base. Someone who possess power, strength and solid technique can pretty much (as commented on) move from any sz frame/wheel combo and be good on them all.

The answer seems more of self-guided analysis - you are obviously free to chose, there is really no right or wrong answer, it's more based more on what you can handle or what you believe you can handle, then achieving it.

14-15mph is not a base pace on 4x100's. I am more about technique than speed, so stepping up in wheels and frame size would be more determined on technique than speeds achieved, unless you're flat-out maxed-out with 4x100's. You ought to be able to push the 4x100's in range of 17-20mph(flats). If you are not reaching those speeds there is either technique or strength, or both, holding you back. In which case work on those things then reward yourself with 110's later on! If you are able to frame-swap with skating buds to test out 4x110's that may help you decide if you are ready for the jump.

And, a reply to fast small wheels (because by nature I am compelled to question).... Hmm, unless you're stichin' behind a car 28-30mph on 4x76 wheels is impossible. Maybe going downhill? Even then I'd fear the deathly wheel wobble of short frames. Elite skaters are hitting average 24-25mph in pace lines on 4x110's(on the flats).

And, deck heights: 110mm - 100mm = 10mm. Some pitches of 4x110's and 4x100's are slightly lower (7mm or 8mm, like some of the CM frames), but the 2nd wheel height guides the overall frame height, and there is typically 10mm of drop between rear and front frame mounts. You can split the difference and run 100's on a 110 frame or opt for a hilo (same effect) to ease your way up.

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Old August 9th, 2013, 03:20 AM   #18
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And, a reply to fast small wheels (because by nature I am compelled to question).... Hmm, unless you're stichin' behind a car 28-30mph on 4x76 wheels is impossible. Maybe going downhill? Even then I'd fear the deathly wheel wobble of short frames.
Totally possible. I've done it, and if you need a video ill have to put one up on youtube. This was also done on wheels that are probably worn to 74mm instead of 76. They were rounded out labeda bad boys(76mm 82a). I don't think I could hold this pace very long though. My goal was/is 30mph with that skate and 76mm wheels. This is a sprint speed of course not a pace.

Frame length and the positioning of it relative to the ball of your foot will largely determine top speeds. Smaller/larger wheels will effect top speed of course, but not as much as one would think.
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Old August 14th, 2013, 09:16 PM   #19
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Hey ajansen,

For me it was best to start with smaller wheels, then I went to 100s, then 110s. I noticed they were faster but around the 15 mile mark I would slow down and my result time on 26 miles was worse then on 100s. So I got on 3x110 1x100 and after awhile did my best times at 26 miles. Then one day I put on the 4x110 and hit 35 mph top speed on flat ground and that did it for me. Now I had to figure out how to get out the 26 mile distance.

After talking with various coaches it was strength training. So lots of squats and lunges with dumbbells and that did the trick plus my sprint speed increased.

Basically you just have to try it and work it, go back and forth if need be.
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Old August 15th, 2013, 05:13 PM   #20
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with that said, Perfect Technique is key to getting the best speed. so whatever helps in that respect is best. That is why I went and stayed on 3x110 1x100 for a long time. In fact I still think about going back to it. Especially when the road is hilly or lots of turns or rough. Rolling over stuff on 110s is easier but lower profile makes it easier on the legs. It is tough and only you can really answer it for yourself. I would get an inexpensive 4x110 frame and test for yourself. Some adapt much faster than I so don't think my way is the best. You may put on that frame and in a short time go like mad. It took me years. And still have much to do.

however, that is only 90%, then comes everything else. strength, flexibility, cardiovascular and much more I am sure.
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