S k a t e L o g     F o r u m

Closed in June of 2020

SKATELOG DOT COM: Web Site | Blog | Facebook |    


Home

*** The SkateLog Forum Has Been Replaced by SkateDebate Dot Com ***

FROM SKATELOG FORUM HOST KATHIE FRY IN MARCH OF 2020:
This announcement is to let everyone know that after hosting the SkateLog Forum and its predecessors for nearly 20 years, I have decided it is time to permanently turn the forum over to a new owner and administrator. I cannot think of anyone more suitable to take on that role than my SkateLog forum co-host, Florida skater Jessica Wright. I am pleased to announce that Jessica has agreed to establish and host a brand new skating forum, configured like the SkateLog Forum, but with a new name and a new Web Site. This new forum is 100% owned and operated by Jessica.

NEW FORUM NAME: SkateDebate Forum
NEW WEB SITE: SkateDebate.com
NEW OWNER AND ADMINISTRATOR: Jessica Wright
REGISTER IN JESSICA'S FORUM: Create a SkateDebate Forum User Name


Go Back   SkateLog Forum > Special Interest Skating Forums (sorted by number of posts) > Speed Skating Forum
FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Speed Skating Forum Most of the discussions in this forum will be about inline speed skating but discussions about ice speed skating and quad roller speed skating are also welcome.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old August 19th, 2014, 09:03 PM   #21
JeffK
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 71
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkateMO View Post
I'm skimming a lot of these posts, so perhaps I missed important details. But, marathon skating is definitely an endurance sport, at least in my mind. Yeah, we only skate for 60 or 80 minutes, but that is a lengthy period of time. I skated Rollin' on the River this past weekend, and there were only a few times that I actually stood up and rested. Every race is different, and yes, there is attacking and some resting that happens, but most of the time, you are having to skate at somewhat of a steady state, even during the resting periods. You can't skate 26.2 miles in just over an hour, simply by sprinting a few times to stay with the attacks and then resting comfortably in the draft the rest of the way. It's usally a high pace that requires work, even when drafting.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying inline marathons are easy, or that there's a lot of resting going on. The pace/speed will vary from one race to another both overall an in variability from one moment to the next. But it's never easy. Heck, my Strava suffer score for Saturday's race was 142, it was an extremely hard effort for me to hang onto the pack I was skating with.


Quote:
Would you say the 10K skaters in the Olympics are not endurance athletes? Those guys are only skating for 13 minutes or less. But, I can tell you from experience - a 10K on ice is about as painful as it gets.
To be honest I'm not so concerned with the terminology of what duration/distance is defined as "endurance". But I think most of us would agree that an inline marathon is different from a running marathon, triathlon (70.3 or Ironman), or road cycling stage race. Those races last 2-3, up to 6+ hours. The pacing strategy and intensity levels are different. My point is that the training program that produces an optimal result for a 70.3 Triathlon won't necessarily produce an optimal result for an inline marathon.

Quote:
You seem like you know your stuff and not trying to argue. I'm just confused as to why you said marathon skating isn't an endurance sport. I do understand your point about the crits in bike racing. To me, those seem more like "sprint events"...but, I'm not a bike racer, so I don't have enough knowledge to really make a fair statement on that. I would say that even in crit racing, you have to have a fairly decent amount of aerobic conditioning, just to stay with the pace for the entire duration of the race.
I brought up the parallel to crit racing because the races are sometimes about an hour in length (some are shorter), and the pacing is more dynamic with surges/attacks. Maybe inline marathons are somewhere in-between crit- and stage-racing on bikes, but to me it has more in common with those events than with running marathons and triathlons.
JeffK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2014, 01:51 AM   #22
ese002
Senior Member
 
ese002's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 504
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffK View Post
To be honest I'm not so concerned with the terminology of what duration/distance is defined as "endurance". But I think most of us would agree that an inline marathon is different from a running marathon, triathlon (70.3 or Ironman), or road cycling stage race. Those races last 2-3, up to 6+ hours. The pacing strategy and intensity levels are different. My point is that the training program that produces an optimal result for a 70.3 Triathlon won't necessarily produce an optimal result for an inline marathon.
A critical difference is the required fuel supply. An event less than two hours can be fueled entirely from liver and muscle glycogen. Much of training for true endurance events is training your body to burn fat effectively. That is not necessary for a skating marathon. Long events also henge of an optimized energy source to be consumed during the race. This can be useful for a skating marathon but for events longer than two hours it can be make or break.

Since fat metabolizes slower than sugars, it can not supply as much energy per unit time. This mandates a slower pace. Skating marathons demand a faster pace that can only be delivered by burning sugars.

Now that doesn't mean a marathon is a sprint. In a sprint event, the pace is so fast that oxygen can not be delivered in sufficient quantity forcing much of the power is produced anaerobically.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a well established term for a shoulder event like an inline marathon: not a sprint but not a true endurance race either. Aerobic but not fat burning.
ese002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2014, 08:43 AM   #23
evilzzz
Senior Member
 
evilzzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London UK
Posts: 860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffK View Post
So by your definition 800m runners are endurance athletes? The term aerobic is pretty broad. Yes, anything longer than about 30-45 becomes primarily aerobic in that fuel sources used by the body require oxygen to process. But the mix of fuel sources used for shorter efforts at high intensity is different from the mix used in a 2-3 hour effort at lower intensity.The shorter, higher intensity efforts rely primarily on glycogen as the fuel source, but you can't do that for more than about 90 minutes. Longer efforts require more energy to come from fat and consumed carbohydrates.


I disagree with this. Running is different, races tend to be steady-state most of the way, with maybe a short burst of intensity at the end. The idea that you would use your 1mile time on skates to predict marathon pace strikes me as pretty ridiculous unless you're talking about time trials. There are too many other variables in pack skating (drafting, attacks, etc). My point is that outdoor speedskating at marathon distances has more in common with bike criterium races than with triathalons or running marathons.
Anything that is sub-maximal, ie, not a sprint, has an element of endurance to it, and anything where energy is primarily sourced from the aerobic system is primarily an endurance event - that means anything longer than about 1 minute.

Those may not be the definitions as you would find in Gray's sporting almanac, but they are undeniable physiological axioms. Otherwise if you want to talk in terms of the subjective, an 100 mile ultramarathoner wouldn't consider a 10km or half marathon as an endurance event, while a sprinter wouldn't consider an 800 or 1500m as endurance.


The aerobic system is the key to everything - the system is 18-19 times MORE efficient in the production of ATP than the anaerobic system, which is why it dominates (see http://www.diffen.com/difference/Aer...ic_Respiration) - 36 molecules of ATP produced for 1 molecule of glucose via the aerobic pathways vs 2 molecules of ATP for the anerobic pathways.

It's worth noting that Arthur Lydiard had all his athletes from 800m to marathon distance performing the same programme during the base training phase, which included long runs of up to 35km:

http://athleticsillustrated.com/edit...ydiard-basics/ -

"Lydiard’s long runs were often run on a hilly route as long as 35kms and included serious hills in the first half. All of his athletes ran this route, some every week throughout the year. Lydiard-coached runners who competed over distances as short as 800m and up to the marathon and all of them including the legendary 800m world record holder Peter Snell, ran together. "

Training principles that we don't even question today were not always so obvious - Lydiard was one of the first grasp the importance of the aerobic system understand that it dominated for events 800m (~1:45min) and upwards even as far back as the 1950s.
evilzzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2014, 09:14 AM   #24
evilzzz
Senior Member
 
evilzzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London UK
Posts: 860
Default

Anyway, one of the reasons I wanted to open up the debate about this was that I see a trend in sports where people want to shortcut their way to success and improvement...

...I see this in a growing trend of "minimalist" training across all sports. Advocates claim that they can get the same (or better) results by replacing volume with intensity. It's the way of the modern world - halve the time spent training to give you whatever other overdoses we can fit into our busy lives. We want results; we want them faster, and we don't mind working harder for it. Pedal to the metal, all the way, baby! Who wouldn't want that??

I'm not convinced by the minimalist training movement. I believe that success and improvement come through laying the proper foundations. If you try to shortcut your way to success, chances are sooner or later you will be found out.

There are plenty of minimalist athletes who have had success, I'm not denying, (here is a good example: http://www.samiinkinen.com/post/8656...-in-four-weeks) but you have to consider their starting point, and that usually these guys and girls have put in years of traditional training to build their base up to that point before going minimalist. Try it starting from scratch or a lower base and the results are likely to be much different.
evilzzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2014, 09:52 AM   #25
evilzzz
Senior Member
 
evilzzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London UK
Posts: 860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ese002 View Post
A critical difference is the required fuel supply. An event less than two hours can be fueled entirely from liver and muscle glycogen. Much of training for true endurance events is training your body to burn fat effectively. That is not necessary for a skating marathon. Long events also henge of an optimized energy source to be consumed during the race. This can be useful for a skating marathon but for events longer than two hours it can be make or break.

Since fat metabolizes slower than sugars, it can not supply as much energy per unit time. This mandates a slower pace. Skating marathons demand a faster pace that can only be delivered by burning sugars.

Now that doesn't mean a marathon is a sprint. In a sprint event, the pace is so fast that oxygen can not be delivered in sufficient quantity forcing much of the power is produced anaerobically.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a well established term for a shoulder event like an inline marathon: not a sprint but not a true endurance race either. Aerobic but not fat burning.

This is true, but the reality is that it is always a mix, and how much sugar you is largely determined by your diet, not by exercise intensity - the relationship between exercise intensity vs sugar burning varies greatly for each individual and is almost certainly not linear.

It is possible to burn primarily sugar or primarily fat when you are aerobic ("aerobic" simply means energy production using the oxidative system), but when are anearobic you can only burn sugar.

Fat metabolisation is very much on the bleeding edge of sports science research and an area in which I am very much interested in.

I wrote more about fat-adaptation here: http://enduranceskating.wordpress.co...-athletes-101/

Also well known fitness coach Ben Greenfield wrote about his Ketogenic experienment here: http://coloradospringshealthcoach.co...rning-machine/

Quote:
"I consistently burnt far above 1g/min of fat during the entire run, and often went above 1.5g/min, which is unheard of.."
We know there are 9 (k)cal per gram of fat, so 1.5g/min is 13.5kcal/min, or 810 kcal/hour sourced just from fat oxidation.

That's obviously just an n=1 experiment, but it goes to show that in a well fat-adapted athlete, it is entirely possible to exercise at a high intensity and source the most of your fuel from fat. Also, I'm not sure how long Greenfield had been ketogenic before running this test, but I think it was 24 weeks, and it's entirely possible that had he been ketogenic even longer, say even 6 month or a year, his fat metabolism could have been even greater.

Messers Volek and Phinney are on the bleeding edge of this research and I'm personally awaiting the results of their experiements with some of the worlds leading low-carb fat-adapted athletes.
evilzzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2014, 03:05 PM   #26
theDonnybrook
Just trying to keep up
 
theDonnybrook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
Posts: 2,008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilzzz View Post
Anyway, one of the reasons I wanted to open up the debate about this was that I see a trend in sports where people want to shortcut their way to success and improvement...

...I see this in a growing trend of "minimalist" training across all sports. Advocates claim that they can get the same (or better) results by replacing volume with intensity. It's the way of the modern world - halve the time spent training to give you whatever other overdoses we can fit into our busy lives. We want results; we want them faster, and we don't mind working harder for it. Pedal to the metal, all the way, baby! Who wouldn't want that??
I see a lot of this, too, and participated in a discussion on the NerdFitness forums where the question was whether longer slower training was better than HIIT for weight loss and physical fitness.

Neither, alone, is sufficient. All of the current sports science for cycling, the most analogous for skating, suggests using both types, but with more volume on slow long rides. Eddy Matzger says the same thing, that we should be doing intervals with a lot of LSS (long slow skates), which is effectively the same kind of training for inline marathon.
__________________
2012 Bont Z, 3PF 7050, ILQ9 Pro, Matter G13 110mm F1
inlinepaceline.wordpress.com
theDonnybrook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2014, 04:43 PM   #27
evilzzz
Senior Member
 
evilzzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London UK
Posts: 860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by theDonnybrook View Post
I see a lot of this, too, and participated in a discussion on the NerdFitness forums where the question was whether longer slower training was better than HIIT for weight loss and physical fitness.

Neither, alone, is sufficient. All of the current sports science for cycling, the most analogous for skating, suggests using both types, but with more volume on slow long rides. Eddy Matzger says the same thing, that we should be doing intervals with a lot of LSS (long slow skates), which is effectively the same kind of training for inline marathon.
You may be right, but I have heard Maffetone mention that some of his triathletes hardly ever train anaerobically.. instead they rely on their racing schedule to keep the anaerobic system sharp. Of course this is for half/Ironman distance where races are 4 or 8hrs+, not the 70-90 minute duration of your typical inline marathon... However even in a 1hr race, it is calculated that just 2 or 3% of your energy is sourced anaerobically - that's it, 3%! the question becomes why would you want to dedicate 20% 30% or even more as many athletes do to train a system that only contributes a measly 3%!?
(source: http://www.fsps.muni.cz/~tvodicka/da...book-6/08.html)
And it is an even more important question when you consider that it has been shown that excessive anaerobic stimulation actually slows or even erodes aerobic fitness.


The extremist argument that I am making is this: while I agree there are very good strategic reasons why you might want to "train fast", as these are the conditions that you will be racing under, and sharpening your racing skills and learning to tolerate fatigue and pain are a very important... these are not physiological reasons to train at that intensity.
evilzzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 20th, 2014, 05:17 PM   #28
theDonnybrook
Just trying to keep up
 
theDonnybrook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
Posts: 2,008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilzzz View Post
The extremist argument that I am making is this: while I agree there are very good strategic reasons why you might want to "train fast", as these are the conditions that you will be racing under, and sharpening your racing skills and learning to tolerate fatigue and pain are a very important... these are not physiological reasons to train at that intensity.
This qualification is very important. In substance and application we agree, you have to train for your race. Lead packs in races, especially competitive packs, are full of surges, gaps, and pace changes. While I agree that to skate fast for 90 minutes, you don't need to train HIIT, to train for race conditions in a pack, you do.
__________________
2012 Bont Z, 3PF 7050, ILQ9 Pro, Matter G13 110mm F1
inlinepaceline.wordpress.com
theDonnybrook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22nd, 2014, 04:32 AM   #29
BearingAll
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 10
Default

I'm in total agreement with JeffK regarding intensity of the marathon level skate races. I do not know about open elite level, where the intensity is more consistently high. my races are a combnation of hard work pulling and then dropping back to recover- followed by repetitions of the same. I've been told or read that pulling requires 30% more energy expenditure than when in a draft (possibly more with a headwind such as at ROTR). So in a typical race, you are "surging" 5-6 times in a paceline of 10 or more. Again, I'm not talking elite where true attacks are more frequent. Recovery from surges/pulling is critical. I basically follow JeffK's workout routine and find it works for me in keeping with the lead or chase pack.
BearingAll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22nd, 2014, 08:33 AM   #30
evilzzz
Senior Member
 
evilzzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London UK
Posts: 860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BearingAll View Post
I'm in total agreement with JeffK regarding intensity of the marathon level skate races. I do not know about open elite level, where the intensity is more consistently high. my races are a combnation of hard work pulling and then dropping back to recover- followed by repetitions of the same. I've been told or read that pulling requires 30% more energy expenditure than when in a draft (possibly more with a headwind such as at ROTR). So in a typical race, you are "surging" 5-6 times in a paceline of 10 or more. Again, I'm not talking elite where true attacks are more frequent. Recovery from surges/pulling is critical. I basically follow JeffK's workout routine and find it works for me in keeping with the lead or chase pack.
A stronger aerobic baseline will help in ALL of that.

Moving from aerobic to anaerobic is not a binary switch - even when you are pulling you do not stop using the aerobic system; in fact, you engage more aerobic fibres the harder you push, but the point is you begin to engage the anaerobic fibres also, which is a shockingly expensive system for ATP synthesis (the work you have to do goes up exponentially) and also creates lactate buildup.

Think of a fighter jet - the aerobic system is the engine, and the anaerobic system are the afterburners. Regardless of the afterburners, would you rather be a single or a dual engined jet?
evilzzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22nd, 2014, 09:04 AM   #31
Letme
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Slovenia (Europe)
Posts: 1,452
Default

I'll chime in with my experience with all the people I've trained. First of all lets say that most of us are very very different in how you burn your energy or at which time you're switching from aerobic to anaerobic, and how much time you can hold on anaerobic levels. Now mainly there are two levels of competitors and they also race with different race tactics, but all of them are consistently right behind the best (or are the best). Trick is to enhance what your nature has given (high aerobic levels, long time above anaerobic), while still trying to cover your weaknesses.
Now to consider inline marathons a pure endurance event is quite a bummer. If you race on your limit (so with top guys you can be), you will be above aerobic limit for around 60% of race, while you will be hitting aerobic rest in 40% (this percentages varry based on your tactics). For example I can make 3 sprints per event at any time (no matter how much intervals I make), but I can be slightly (10 heartbeats) above aerobic limit for around 20 minutes, while I can be in 90-95% zone for around 5 minutes - but only 3 times per race. So basically count that together and you get 20minutes + 5x3 = 15 minutes = 35 minutes. That is around half of the marathon, but keep in mind I do not train a lot or hard at the moment. What training changes is power of this sprints and speed at which I travel (much like evilzzz figured out). This is not just for aerobic training (lets face it: if you're in race in aerobic level you're probably in wrong group or you're just waiting for attacks-sprints), but it helps to know that you are resting with a lot higher speeds (still lower speeds than you will ever be on inline marathon).
I know evilzzz did LeMans 24h this year, so he was skating 99% of his time in aerobic level at that race (no attacks - or at least you dont follow them, and you go uphill slowly), but a true marathon will be a much different scenery. First attacks will kill everything aerobic you did, because you will not be able to follow them no matter how hard you'd set the pace. This is because you'd be pulling the group behind with steady pace (we all love that) and burning your energy while others behind you would also be resting (30% rule applies here, so they will have even lower heartrate). While drafting in group without attacks I can get to as low as 60% of my MaxHR, but then mostly attacks start. And for this kind of racing you NEED intervals and weights.
Do not get me wrong - basic aerobic exercise is crucial but in winter. In summer you want to hit intervals, sprints (not same as intervals), pace changes. This never happens in running - there you get into your pace and keep it going, otherwise like you mentioned you die. In skating, keeping the group is far more important than being in your pace zone, because of drafting.

And rest is really really important, but you need to time it right. If you feel tired on training, make sure you push through it fast and than take time to recover (rest). This is not lying on couch whole day, but aerobic exercise in lower HR zones is exactly what "rest" looks like. That means training can be 7 days per week, but then at least 2 days should be light, boring, aerobic workout.
__________________
My speed roller skating club can be found on http://www.rklj.si
Bont distributor for South-East Europe. Online shop can be found on http://www.bont.si
Letme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23rd, 2014, 08:23 AM   #32
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,423
Default

I think you guys are also missing the primary component of skating, running , cycling etc.

FORM

Aerobic conditions will undoubtedly build your form much faster than the highest intensity moments of your training. the harder your pushing the harder it becomes to do that subliminal "form check" muscle groups lose their stability at maximum exertion which translates to a loss of energy. You can become so strong in your muscles that your bones will deflect and you will lose power before it even makes it out of your body.

I think the key that everyone is beating around here but not making a notation on is trying to go faster with the same heartrate by not only training that system itself and your body, but by refining your form for what ever it may be to use the least amount of energy and bring the best results to the table.

I think skating itself should mostly be done as Evilzzz is hitting on - more slow and steady-, and weights/ muscle isolation in a safer environment can be used for your strength building. Here's why. If theres anything my martial arts has taught me as skating goes its this... Every time you stride , its a kick. The more kicks you have under your belt, the better your likely to be at that kick.

Bruce lee said :
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

I realize not everyone has the time to always go crank out 45-120 minuites of skating, just to train, and as a result HIIT training will be better than nothing, but the fact is that repition in your stride and the proficiency of cannot be ignored.

The progess made at Evilzzz heart rate VS time/distance shows not only his system improvement but his form improvement if you ask me. The same probably goes for Mark Allen who was refrenced in post #2

Another thing I like to tell people I got from TKD when they are skating to keep up with me at the rink- If you cannot breathe, you cannot fight.

Evilzzz, do you have access to a swimming pool?


EDIT
PS: Also when exerting to the MAX, your muscles tend to take a moment to "power down" if you would, so learning to "pulse/relax" is often very hard for skaters.
__________________
Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv.
"Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy
Mort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23rd, 2014, 10:52 AM   #33
Letme
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Slovenia (Europe)
Posts: 1,452
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Bruce lee said :
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
I would apply this quote differently: Do not mix your exercises in one practice, but keep it simple. If you are doing intervals, then do intervals, if you do sprints, do sprints, if you do aerobic, then forget about everything else at that time.
Also nobody here is talking about technique and form and for good reason as this are different aspects of training and you do not do technique, while doing aerobic exercises or you would quickly kill the aerobic part, because there is no way you will do technique drills for that long. Otherwise we are all constantly saying: the more skating you will do the better you will be - and that does apply as well as to aerobic as well as intervals. If you do not do sprints, then your technique will go bye bye in sprint and there is no way you will sprint fast enough to keep the group. And technique defines the acceleration at higher speeds - not your strength. But we went offtopic here a bit.
__________________
My speed roller skating club can be found on http://www.rklj.si
Bont distributor for South-East Europe. Online shop can be found on http://www.bont.si
Letme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 23rd, 2014, 07:55 PM   #34
online inline
Senior Member
 
online inline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: seattle, WA USA
Posts: 3,925
Default

I would second the points expressed by Letme.
I see this a lot - discussions started that purport one aspect of a training program to the exclusion of the other parts.
To keep it brutally simple, an effective training program involves not only endurance work, but also tempo, intervals, sprints, and of course technique work.
A few years ago on this forum, certain posters were pushing the 'i only got fast once i did the speed interval work', which may be true, but goes hand in hand with building the aerobic base.
It's all part of an overall plan. Rest/recovery needs to be part of that plan as well.
For percentage break down, the interval and speed workout probably should not be more than 25% of an athlete's weekly (or 10 day) cycle. Hard workouts should be geniunely hard, (but not necessarily race effort), and recovery days should be easy.
Also, the training cycle develops and changes as it progresses through the year, and training program of course is modified accordingly. And one new discovery for me recently is that the training program should be evolving with each successive year as well.
To explain in any detail would take a book, and there are excellent books on the subject. But the crucial message is that each of these things being discussed, aerobic training, intervals, tempo workouts, are the main componenets of training program, with speed work a good addition if time allows. And each of these will support the other aspects of the athlete's program. That's the plan most widely accepted, but choose for yourself.
online inline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2014, 03:14 AM   #35
theDonnybrook
Just trying to keep up
 
theDonnybrook's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Schaumburg, Illinois
Posts: 2,008
Default

[QUOTE=online inline;693056]But the crucial message is that each of these things being discussed, aerobic training, intervals, tempo workouts, are the main componenets of training program, with speed work a good addition if time allows. And each of these will support the other aspects of the athlete's program. That's the plan most widely accepted, but choose for yourself./QUOTE]

Yes, this, and, lets listen to a world champ that coaches world champs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuswCtKU1Q0
__________________
2012 Bont Z, 3PF 7050, ILQ9 Pro, Matter G13 110mm F1
inlinepaceline.wordpress.com
theDonnybrook is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2014, 10:51 AM   #36
evilzzz
Senior Member
 
evilzzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London UK
Posts: 860
Default

I will not argue that at the very sharp end of fitness pack and in the elite pack you have to be able to handle attacks and sudden changes of pace.. these guys race for position, not for time or for PRs.

But most of us are just age groupers who simply aren't at that level. We just want to improve. Marathons and most other races for 95% of us are mostly a case of finding the fastest paceline that you can cling onto at your anaerobic threshold and then trying to hold onto it... you're looking to work co-operatively with the paceline for the whole race.

If you're in that 95% then you need to worry far less about breakaways and elite racing tactics, and far more on base fitness and form.. so be honest about where you currently are, set realistic goals, and plan your training around that rather than just looking at how the pros who have 30 hours a week to train do it.
evilzzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2014, 02:49 PM   #37
kentek
Senior Member
 
kentek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 435
Default And what about HILLS?

I understand the concept of what you are trying to accomplish but what about hills? The "up" part of hills, especially with a headwind, will blow your HR template into the ditch.

I just don't have the luxury of a flat terrain for skating. My out and back course (the only one I have) has 2 fairly long hills on the out and 2 steeper-longer hills on the return. My HR will reach 180 if there is a head wind or if it is really warm.

BTW: Temperature is a big factor on HR. Once the temp reaches the mid 70s it can take up to 25% of your cardio system to manage heat. If you slow down enough to keep your HR in your chosen range you may never get home.
kentek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2014, 04:20 PM   #38
online inline
Senior Member
 
online inline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: seattle, WA USA
Posts: 3,925
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilzzz View Post
I will not argue that at the very sharp end of fitness pack and in the elite pack you have to be able to handle attacks and sudden changes of pace.. these guys race for position, not for time or for PRs.

But most of us are just age groupers who simply aren't at that level. We just want to improve. Marathons and most other races for 95% of us are mostly a case of finding the fastest paceline that you can cling onto at your anaerobic threshold and then trying to hold onto it... you're looking to work co-operatively with the paceline for the whole race.

If you're in that 95% then you need to worry far less about breakaways and elite racing tactics, and far more on base fitness and form.. so be honest about where you currently are, set realistic goals, and plan your training around that rather than just looking at how the pros who have 30 hours a week to train do it.
this has nothing to do with it. We are talking about training plans to improve every skater's abilities and performance. Doing intervals and tempo work (in addition to the endurance work you seem to be pushing) will improve the conditioning of any athlete.

good luck with your training and races. Let us know how it goes.
online inline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2014, 04:38 PM   #39
evilzzz
Senior Member
 
evilzzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London UK
Posts: 860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kentek View Post
I understand the concept of what you are trying to accomplish but what about hills? The "up" part of hills, especially with a headwind, will blow your HR template into the ditch.

I just don't have the luxury of a flat terrain for skating. My out and back course (the only one I have) has 2 fairly long hills on the out and 2 steeper-longer hills on the return. My HR will reach 180 if there is a head wind or if it is really warm.

BTW: Temperature is a big factor on HR. Once the temp reaches the mid 70s it can take up to 25% of your cardio system to manage heat. If you slow down enough to keep your HR in your chosen range you may never get home.

Don't really know why you think this is special for skaters. Do runners and cyclists never experience hills or high temperatures? Heart rate zone training has been adopted in many disciplines and its never a valid excuse made that the method is unsuitable because of hills and headwinds.

The whole point of training by heart rate is to focus on what you can control - your workrate, adjusting your pace accordingly given the course and the conditions.

If you're allowing your heart rate to spike on a hill then you're doing so because you want to maintain a certain pace - by definition you're training by pace rather than heart rate at that particular point. It is entirely possible to keep your heart rate steady even while climbing a hill - you just have to slow down enough.

The body does not know speed or distance, it only knows intensity and time, so it makes sense to control these parameters rather than trying to control the output.


***
edit

Here is a cycle session on a hilly route I've just done where I tried to stay at my zone2 heart rate.

http://runmeter.com/d0e4bd1162a0f6c2...-20140824-1455

You can see that I kept a max cap on my heart rate of about 140, and tried to keep it in a zone between 130-140.

Some notes:

- Even on the hill climbs I do pretty well in keeping under 140bpm. There are 3 climbs of 50 meters where my pace drops dramatically.. sometimes to a measly 9km/hr, but that's OK, because I'm training by heart rate and not by pace.

- A few times I allow my heart rate to pop above 140bpm... well, no-one's perfect..

- There are a few points where it falls below 120 are either because I had to stop or drastically slow for traffic purposes, or on the steep downhills

As an aside, my max heart rate is north of 200+, yet I'm capping it at 70% of max, even on hillclimbs. So as you can see, it's entirely possible to control heart rate even on hills. You just have to slow down enough. Keeping your heart rate UP on the downhills is a challenge too!
evilzzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 24th, 2014, 05:28 PM   #40
evilzzz
Senior Member
 
evilzzz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London UK
Posts: 860
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by online inline View Post
this has nothing to do with it. We are talking about training plans to improve every skater's abilities and performance. Doing intervals and tempo work (in addition to the endurance work you seem to be pushing) will improve the conditioning of any athlete.

good luck with your training and races. Let us know how it goes.

I don't disagree with that. We seem to have had this discussion on the other training thread..

the easy days need to be easy and the hard days need to be hard, but the hard days should never be so hard or such a large % of your volume that it causes any regression in your base... which unfortunately often the case. If that begins happening, then training harder will ironically only make things worse - the only solution then is to cut your anaerobic work and go back to fixing the base.
evilzzz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.