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Quad Roller Skating Forum Discussions about quad roller skates and any other quad skating discussions that do not seem appropriate for one of our other forums.

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Old March 28th, 2016, 02:52 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by scottishrob View Post
There is a derby guy at our rink that has them. He has expressed that he is not a big fan of them. Mostly because he likes fine tuning as he puts it. He says they will probably be for sale soon and that he is going back to a DA45, Avenger I think. But I would definitely like to hear more of what Doc thinks of them with more time on them.
I know one derby skater that switched to the Arius and like it. She played ice hockey for quite a while before derby. Her derby style relied on a lot of quick hockey style stops and jukes.

She like how the Arius felt like it was on a knife edge when not on an edge. They felt much more like her ice skates in this respect. The skater has to work to keep the plate going straight. Then when she wanted to slide the skates around, the action would ramp up quickly and help her break traction.

Previous to the Arius she had been on a Proline, Falcon and even a short stint on an Avenger.
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Old March 29th, 2016, 07:19 PM   #22
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Lightbulb

Doc, did you have the Arius on a Bont? If that's the case, I'm wondering how that plate setup performed with the responsiveness of the Bont for you, specifically the combination of *a responsive boot* and *the plate with the action that ramps up quickly*, if that makes sense. It didn't work for Mort, but we all know you love the Bont
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Old March 29th, 2016, 08:01 PM   #23
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Doc, did you have the Arius on a Bont? If that's the case, I'm wondering how that plate setup performed with the responsiveness of the Bont for you, specifically the combination of *a responsive boot* and *the plate with the action that ramps up quickly*, if that makes sense. It didn't work for Mort, but we all know you love the Bont
For me it was very grippy, very stable, just couldn't really feel it. Doesn't make a lot of sense im sure.

I couldn't turn any more or less with the bont. But it did take a bit more work with the vanilla. This was overcome easily with leverage through the knees.

If people are used to bonts, then it would possibly work for them.
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Old March 29th, 2016, 08:37 PM   #24
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Default Where is my Arius??


Tried it here first. Didn't like it one bit although I think the B last 395 had something to do with it.
Now it's here.

I could detect no real difference in the plates behavior on either boot, but quite frankly, I am not interested to discover if the energy level to turn the sk8s is 8 or 9. I like minimum effort. like 1 to 2. I'll roll them again Wed nite.
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Old March 29th, 2016, 08:39 PM   #25
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For me it was very grippy, very stable, just couldn't really feel it. Doesn't make a lot of sense im sure.

I couldn't turn any more or less with the bont. But it did take a bit more work with the vanilla. This was overcome easily with leverage through the knees.

If people are used to bonts, then it would possibly work for them.
I definitely get the part about the feel through the boot, as I wear lots of minimalist shoes for running, I am quite familiar with "ground feel", the sensation of feeling the ground with proprioceptors in the feet. When I run in shoes with less cushioning, I can feel the attributes of the ground underneath better, whether it's stable or unstable, hard or soft, slippery or not, etc and this can help to avoid turning an ankle or prevent myself from tripping. I assume what you're saying is the skate version of this.
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Old March 29th, 2016, 08:43 PM   #26
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I could detect no real difference in the plates behavior on either boot, but quite frankly, I am not interested to discover if the energy level to turn the sk8s is 8 or 9. I like minimum effort. like 1 to 2. I'll roll them again Wed nite.
Awesome, thanks for the explanation and pics... Now for some *popcorn* 'til Wednesday
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Old March 29th, 2016, 09:27 PM   #27
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Default Food for thought.

The whole object of a roller sk8 is to get your your push to the ground, is it not?? A flexible sole does not do that well. Leather has a huge amount of (for lack of a better word) hysteresis.
Quote:
Hysteresis represent the history dependence of physical systems. If you push on something, it will yield: when you release, does it spring back completely? If it doesn't, it is exhibiting hysteresis, in some broad sense.
So a portion of the energy put in is dissipated by the deformation of the sole, so it is lost. NOTE: This applies to big fat comfy insoles as well.

The Bont sole, as typically executed, has a whole heck of a lot less flex than a leather, plastic or rubber sole. Look at some of the boots that wrap around the plate. All the energy put into wrapping the sole around the plate is NOT being used to move the sk8r.

Like I said, food for thought and as always YMMV.
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Old March 30th, 2016, 01:04 AM   #28
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Where doc likes a lower resistance to turning, this doesn't apply to me. My exertion level on skate equipment is up there a little bit, so small to middleground edging requirements arent an issue at all. If my feet hurt to skate hard like I do from constant edging, id do something about it though.

Yea, its pretty much the same as your running apparel. The bont boot wraps my foot up so firmly its hard to gauge the flex in it, weeks on it and i was never really comfortable. Best described as skating blind, or with numb feet (my feet were not numb tho) and having a hard time deciphering the pressures im applying. In many cases grip was there on second and gone the next.

The power transfer was a bit better, but honestly, my top speed and agility suffered so much from lack of feedback it wouldnt have made any difference.
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Old March 31st, 2016, 01:59 PM   #29
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*** Bump for update Doc??? How are those plates and cushions working out???***
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Old March 31st, 2016, 05:15 PM   #30
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Exclamation Impatient much??

I'll update after I have time to stew on my adventures last night.
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Old April 2nd, 2016, 08:08 PM   #31
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Default Stewing done for the moment.

I am pretty happy with where this new truck has taken the design. It still chokes too quickly to suit me, but that is based on about 4 hours riding time on the same butterflies.

If "choking up" does not make sense to you, my feel is that a conventional double action sk8 has a very linear ramp up of pressure as the action is leaned into. The original Arius action felt like a pretty sever exponential ramp up. The new combination has a response that feels more linear in the beginning, with a delayed onset of the rapid ramp up. It is still there but not as offensive.

Next up, a bit bigger hole through the side of the cushions. Machining this stuff is a pain in the backside, so I will ponder how to attack this a bit before I go nutso with the power tools. I am also pondering what I might do with the new split butterfly cushion..

Now remember, I have very particular ideas about plate function. If I cannot get the turning response where I want it, then the plate is not good for much more than a wall decoration in my book. Remember, one can always damp the response of a plate that is too responsive. Making something that does not want to turn in the first place is a far more different and difficult story.

Food for thought. I put some stiffer cushions in my Pro Lines the other night and got a very similar feel to what I remembered the original Arius set up to be. That would mean they behave much like a stiffened up Reactor. YMMV
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Old April 3rd, 2016, 07:19 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
The original Arius action felt like a pretty sever exponential ramp up. The new combination has a response that feels more linear in the beginning, with a delayed onset of the rapid ramp up.
"Patented cushion design provides Progressive Lateral Movement..." -sounds like it's a feature as far as they're concerned

Think there would be a way to add some sort of linear compression system (e.g. a spring in the truck or cushion assembly or even a simple hydraulic system) to aid in creating a more fluid action? There has to be a better way of doing this than a butterfly cushion crammed in with some metal...
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Old April 3rd, 2016, 03:23 PM   #33
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Default Quad Skate industry mostly ignores suspension ramp up

Whether it is a breakthrough new design like the Arius plates, or a tried and true standard quad suspension plate, IMO, the people who design plates pay far too little attention to the factors that impact turning resistance ramp up profile, and how to best tweak their designs to allow fully optimizing this very important (to skaters) plate performance aspect.

I say this as someone who for several years thought I understood all the important stuff there was to know about how quad suspensions function, and how to best optimize them for specific results.

Two things triggered waking me up to the reality of the gaps in my understanding ---

The first was when DocSk8 mentioned in one of his posts the fact that unlike rubber, urethane cushions do not really compress - they only shape deform and squish/squirm away from whatever forces get applied to them.

The second was when I struggled to determine what specifically it was that gave the suspensions of the Chicago Panther plates such a near perfect (for me) ramp up profile compared to all the other plate/truck designs of the many different plate types I had tested and analyzed? This eventually lead me to realized that it was because the the Panther plate's truck and retainer lips were very shallow and their inside lip edges were cone shaped at a more open angle of ~100 to platform, instead of the typical cylindrical truck lip inside corner of 90 to platform.

Once I put the one-plus-one of these two things together, I started evaluating and tuning skate suspensions from a whole new and different perspective. All that mattered most to me and drew my primary focus was the shapes and areas of the portions of the trucks where they contacted the corresponding shapes and areas of the cushions, as the truck moved, starting at neutral and swinging out through to the limit of its range at the wheel bite point. The various ways that hard truck (and retainer) surfaces pressed (or were pressed) inward against the urethane cushion, according to the swing axis of the truck, dictated a unique resistance ramp up profile.

Fast forwarding a few years to the present and the current topic of this thread, while the Arius plate design is completely different in the way its truck's surfaces engage with its butterfly cushions, the issues are still the same as far as how to produce the optimum kind of a resistance ramp up profile for a desired kind of skate performance.

Back in 2011, when the "Immortal" plate concept, from which the Arius is derived, was initially introduced, I commented then in the SLF thread as follows (based on my assessment of the website material; not hands-on):
LINK → http://skatelogforum.com/forums/show...light=immortal

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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post

--- May 6th, 2011, 10:38 PM Thread Page #2 Post #21
The cushion scheme also seems poor on this plate design. The urethane WEDGES appear too tightly captured between the surrounding metal to give enough freedom of action and range of axle swing. It looks like they messed up on the initial design and it was too stiff. Then they notched away some of the urethane to give smaller contact area with the metal.
No matter how soft the urethane is, it needs sufficient open area [against it, and urethane clearance volume] around it for wedge to "squirm" away from the squeezing of the action.
DocSk8 recently pointed out that urethane does not really compress very much, and instead it flexes and squirms away from the pressure being applied to it. This Immortal plate does not allow the "wedge cushions" enough breathing room for urethane to escape from the squeeze of the metal IMO. It was designed as if the designer thought that urethane COMPRESSES, which is WRONG. This plate would work better with RUBBER MATERIAL for the action stabilizing "SHOCKS" as they call them.
-Armadillo
Five years later and two redesigns (Arius I & II) later, it would seem that this problem with the suspension has only been somewhat improved but not yet fully resolved.
Has anyone aver done the test of cloning the cushions with a NON-urethane material that is able to be at least somewhat compressed as the truck swings?

-Armadillo
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Old April 3rd, 2016, 03:35 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Trixton View Post
"Patented cushion design provides Progressive Lateral Movement..." -sounds like it's a feature as far as they're concerned

There has been some very interesting copy put out about these plates. Progressively more difficult would be my call...but then again all sk8 actions require more effort as the lean angle increases.

Think there would be a way to add some sort of linear compression system (e.g. a spring in the truck or cushion assembly or even a simple hydraulic system) to aid in creating a more fluid action? There has to be a better way of doing this than a butterfly cushion crammed in with some metal...
Actually, folks have been trying to do just that since the 1880s. Take a little time and look at some of the referenced patents listed @ the top of the Arius patent.
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Old April 3rd, 2016, 05:18 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Five years later and two redesigns (Arius I & II) later, it would seem that this problem with the suspension has only been somewhat improved but not yet fully resolved.
Has anyone aver done the test of cloning the cushions with a NON-urethane material that is able to be at least somewhat compressed as the truck swings?

-Armadillo
+1 to this... there has to be a better suited material for this particular design...
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Old June 26th, 2016, 02:29 PM   #36
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Default Part 2.

I have done some further goofing with this sk8. The new trucks have been a game changer, however the axle length and shape @ the threads have caused some real issues with bearings for a few sk8rs.

Easily solved, however. Punch out the stock bits and replace them with SG A1 hardened 8mm axles. Whiles the 5/16 vs 8mm diameter presents a small issue the bearings will now ride equally supported on the axle. It's a difference one can feel as it tightens up how the wheel behaves when rolling. Not a big difference but easily noted when rolling slowly.

OK what else... I put full width 97 Scott Phantoms on the sk8s. Then sk8ed them for about an hour. It was the first time I was not really aware of that was under the boots while riding the Arius.

I fear further improvement is going to take hand massaging the shape of the old style cushions. So the carbide bits will go into the Foredom and I will commence to carve.

In summary, It is now possible to get The Arius to behave in a manner I find fitting for a high end plate. It can be adjusted to behave like I want it to. While that may not be your criteria, it fits mine. Remember, old style cushions in new style trucks. As always, YMMV.

Further updates as I get a chance to play. A couple of the new Chaya derby plates and a pair of their boots have shown up here and I need to get some time on them to see what is up.


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Old March 18th, 2017, 04:24 PM   #37
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Red face So, 9 months later

I have yet to do any further research on the Arius. I still think that some tuning of the hole size / or cushion profile would be beneficial, but that is all on hold for now. Other fish are frying.
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Old March 18th, 2017, 10:45 PM   #38
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Default Fried Fish

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Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
I have yet to do any further research on the Arius. I still think that some tuning of the hole size / or cushion profile would be beneficial, but that is all on hold for now. Other fish are frying.
Any clues to what other fish you may be frying?
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Old March 19th, 2017, 05:10 AM   #39
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Default He hehe!!

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Any clues to what other fish you may be frying?
I dropped a hint or 2 in another recent post. I do one more. It is something a derby sk8r who goes by "Peter Pan" turned me on to.
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Old March 24th, 2017, 12:19 AM   #40
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Default Trying to change out the cushions

DISREGARD I FOUND OUT...I searched but didn't find anything but how do you change out the cushions? I assum you have to take off the wheels along with the cushion housing(don't know what it's called)
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