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Old February 23rd, 2014, 04:44 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by MR SHELBY View Post
Looking at some of the posted photos in various threads showing where the "Butterflies" bind up on the plate, it looks as though the butterflies perhaps should taper down in diameter/size as they leave the plate & head to the truck...

If that idea worked perhaps some material on the "Trucks" could also be removed since the Butterflies wouldn't be as large at that end any longer...

Derrick......
Yes, I like your thinking on this issue. By having a variance of angles between the the two contact surfaces (cushion & metal), the rate of ramp up as the truck swings can be controlled by the amount of angle deviation between the two surfaces.

As long as an adequate amount of near neutral cushion/metal contact is maintained, the snap back level should still stay decent.

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Old February 24th, 2014, 05:21 PM   #22
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Well the test mold and silicone set of butterflies are setting up. Injected the mold Sunday. We will see what comes out. Sadly the mold did break under the clamping pressure. So I will have to remake the one side of the mold but that is not the end of the world.

I injected 100% silicone caulk as I believe it will be an approximate match for the propertied of the Urethane (though at a much lower shore rating, probably around 27a).

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... One thing I have noted is the lack of uniformity on the ends that were produced by the bottom and the top of the molds. Short fills and over fills on the fill end. Some had a bunch of mold flash...
Yes, this has to be the biggest annoyance with Powerdyne. Their molding process should be unacceptable. There seems to be no consistent line they fill to. And the other side the 'bottom" of the mold is so nicely detailed I am positive they should have been capable of producing a better mold. (I would and have used an injection mold process for this very reason)
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Old February 24th, 2014, 05:29 PM   #23
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Yes, this has to be the biggest annoyance with Powerdyne. Their molding process should be unacceptable. There seems to be no consistent line they fill to. And the other side the 'bottom" of the mold is so nicely detailed I am positive they should have been capable of producing a better mold. (I would and have used an injection mold process for this very reason)

I agree, an injection molding process is far superior..... If that is the direction they go, be prepared for a huge price spike. RIM (reaction injection molding) machines are not inexpensive, The tooling is all custom (so it's expensive too) and huge runs need to be made to make the RIM system economically feasible to operate.
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Old February 24th, 2014, 07:30 PM   #24
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I agree, an injection molding process is far superior..... If that is the direction they go, be prepared for a huge price spike. RIM (reaction injection molding) machines are not inexpensive, The tooling is all custom (so it's expensive too) and huge runs need to be made to make the RIM system economically feasible to operate.
Yep, that is a real problem. They could use the services that produce small run injection molds like Epsilon Ind. or here

It is possible to do short run alum tooling for a much lower cost.

The other thing to do it to have the mold have a cut point for the flashing to sheer off the excess and leave the cushion flashing cut to a closer tolerance.

Heck, if my concept pans out I might just have to look into a Kickstarter to build a small run injection mold in Alum to cast the new design. I am hesitant, as I am not certain how close is too close to protect me from infringement suites on the OEM part. I'll have to look into that more before proceeding with that option.


BTW, tried the plate with no cushions, just to see what would happen. It was nutz. I was parely able to skate without leaning to far and boot biting at first. Once I got use to it I was able to get turns with ~1' radius. Most resulted in a faceplant due to boot bite, but when it worked it was crazy tight. Shows this plate could be a beast if tuned right.

_________UPDATE___2/25/14_____________
I got the new silicone cushions out of the mold late last night and tested them in the plate. Still far too loose at center to ever dream of skating them that way (at 23-30a they are WAY too soft for my taste). I can however skate them. I will post pics tonight and hopefully video of them being skated after Wednesday night practice. They let you turn the same 1' radius but add just a hint of resistance to aid in keeping upright, not enough to be safe to skate long term. They ARE skatable but I am clenching my ankles to prevent every little movement from causing a heavy turn, it is only a small improvement over 84a blues.

I plan to test my proposed alterations on them for squeeze out this weekend and will post pics if it works out. I am betting this will solve our problems of the binding. I do not however belive it will ever give a nice even pressure from center to full lean. I think that like any system like this it will ramp up and become harder at the extremes. To get it soft enough to turn effortlessly like the DA10 with all blues did, I believe we may need as low as 60a to achieve this. We will have to wait and see.
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Old April 24th, 2014, 08:46 PM   #25
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How goes the cushion modding? Im about to mod my light blues. I currently use whites which I had to specify I wanted upon ordering, which that idea came from the reviews of cushion binding. They came installed with yellows, I skated them for a few sessions, and swapped straight to the whites.

After looking at my plate a month ago or so when I added a little lithium grease to the hinges im thinking of adding a bevel in a C shape as it sits in the cupped part of the plate. Work will be slow next week so I may have time to belt sand them. To ensure more even/equal removal and cushion shapes I will use my micrometer/caliper.

My goal is just to alleviate the bind as you turn sharp like everyone else. I think the binding mostly haooens in the cup of the plate which holds the cushion. May be skating a modded cushion this weekend.

Another idea is to remove some urethane on the spot where the truck meets the cushion, though i think it should be the inverse there, like ome removed from the center, not he outside edge. Ill look at my skater later.

I talked with my machinist buddy about making a Arius for me out of billet He said he'd do it, so I may end up with a NTS plate, or a modified boss.
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Old April 24th, 2014, 09:49 PM   #26
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How goes the cushion modding?
Stalled at the moment. Hit a busy spot and on top of that, I am not able to invest in casting material at this moment. So casting test cushions out of anything but silicone is out. Tried the cut I had came up with on the silicone.

It did what it was suppose to, got rid of the binding entirely,but it didn't get rid of the wobble at zero. I am back in derby season and need the stability, so I put the greens back in.

Oddly the cushions feel looser and looser the more the temp rises here. The greens now ride like the light blues did in winter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Im about to mod my light blues. I currently use whites which I had to specify I wanted upon ordering, which that idea came from the reviews of cushion binding.

After looking at my plate a month ago or so when I added a little lithium grease to the hinges im thinking of adding a bevel in a C shape as it sits in the cupped part of the plate. Work will be slow next week so I may have time to belt sand them. To ensure more even/equal removal and cushion shapes I will use my micrometer/caliper.
Be careful of the fumes they are toxic.
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Old April 25th, 2014, 01:20 AM   #27
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Be careful of the fumes they are toxic.
I wouldn't let it get hot enough to gas out like that. The sanding band is worn in well an I like to take my time.

I doubt I'll resort to burning holes or material away.
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Old July 10th, 2014, 10:26 PM   #28
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Default New concept

A new thread got me thinking. The Arius does not preload at all right? No matter what cushion you put in the center will all ways be "full loose." What about ways to add preload? Wouldn't a 76a with some preload skate nicer than an 80 with none? (80a felt VERY wobbly at center and quite hard at the limit of turning)
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Old July 11th, 2014, 03:17 AM   #29
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Default Bingo.

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Originally Posted by llama of death View Post
A new thread got me thinking. The Arius does not preload at all right?

That is correct, at least as "we" understand the term preload. Interestingly enough, a conventional king pin action is essentially preloaded by your weight as soon as you stand on it even with the cushions rattly loose.

When you stand on the Arius, you stand on the action pin not the butterflies.

No matter what cushion you put in the center will all ways be "full loose."

Up to a point. If you put reall stiff butterflies into the action it acts like a preload. Too bad they refuse to turn that way.

What about ways to add preload? Wouldn't a 76a with some preload skate nicer than an 80 with none? (80a felt VERY wobbly at center and quite hard at the limit of turning)
You should try some of the 74As I have. Or the trucks I have machined away some of the metal on..
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Old July 11th, 2014, 04:01 AM   #30
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Doc, I am curious to what extent you think Powerdyne offered prototypes to test skaters to determine the best truck to cushion contact interface geometry.

Clearly the shape complexity of these two components demanded that optimizing the design be a rather iterative process, with needed feedback from serious skaters to steer the direction of the effort.

From your having previously worked with SG on many projects, I am curious whether you think there was this kind of an iterative design refinement process done with the suspension of the Arius plates, and if so, do you feel that it was adequate for the results delivered with the suspension performance of the initial production run?

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Old July 11th, 2014, 04:03 AM   #31
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What about ways to add preload?
I'd imagine making the cushions too big (in the right direction) would work. They might be a bear to get on, but all the force it takes you to deform them enough to get into position would act as the preload. You might be able to slip some shims in as well.

I have some other ideas that include using spring steel in a leaf spring suspension and pushing the ends of the curve together (maybe via an adjustable screw), but that would take a lot more work and modification just to add the leaf spring.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 06:43 AM   #32
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I'd imagine making the cushions too big (in the right direction) would work. They might be a bear to get on, but all the force it takes you to deform them enough to get into position would act as the preload. You might be able to slip some shims in as well.

I have some other ideas that include using spring steel in a leaf spring suspension and pushing the ends of the curve together (maybe via an adjustable screw), but that would take a lot more work and modification just to add the leaf spring.
These ideas are certainly on the right path for eliminating the few design weakness of the Arius plates. Getting some minimum area of additional near neutral deformation, combined with increasing the amount of cushion to truck breathing room, allowing for slower truck swing ramp up, is what will allow this plate's design to reach the next higher level of its performance potential.

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Old July 11th, 2014, 03:39 PM   #33
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Doc, I am curious to what extent you think Powerdyne offered prototypes to test skaters to determine the best truck to cushion contact interface geometry.

-Armadillo
I know one of the testers had a plate with adjustable preload from the Immortal I Drive design.

IMO, the trucks with the adjustable butterflies need to come back.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 03:58 PM   #34
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I'd imagine making the cushions too big (in the right direction) would work. They might be a bear to get on, but all the force it takes you to deform them enough to get into position would act as the preload. You might be able to slip some shims in as well.

I have some other ideas that include using spring steel in a leaf spring suspension and pushing the ends of the curve together (maybe via an adjustable screw), but that would take a lot more work and modification just to add the leaf spring.
I had the same thought for shims and over sizing the cushion in the 'right ways'. The trouble is making it easy to do. I imagine the originals (I-drive) had two separate adjustments which would as we all had guessed, before release, would be a pain to adjust as it could easily be too much on one side or the other. Shims would be hard to install but could functionally add preload without making it impossible to keep the truck centered..

I have also toyed with the idea of springs in many forms. Nothing conceptually functional yet from me on that front.


Yes Doc, I did/do realize they do not function like traditional gear, but the terms are (IMO) still valid. The concept of adding compressive energy to the system to reduce near neutral wobble is what I mean by preload.
Preload, angle-of-action, etc many of the same old terms can be still applied here despite the radical change in shape and function. They do the same thing and I see no reason to not use them. It should not be misleading to reference the angle-of-action nor the hardness of cushion or even preload.

I do though disagree that the harder cushions act like preload. I still find the center to be wobbly at times much too much to say it had anything to do with which cushion I had in.

I would like to try the 78s with shims, I really do think that should work. (it wont solve some of the ramp up issues but should make it more... snappy.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 05:33 PM   #35
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Still havent gotten off my ass to modify my blues! ugh. but....

When skating my arius I don't find the center wobbly at all. I also had to push my trucks down onto the plate to some degree to slide the pin through. It wasn't hard for me but my wife had a problem doing it, thouch she got it after a couple trys. This brings up some issues but nothing that wouldnt be expected from someone whos done car work before and know how NOT to strip or damage hardware by being hastey.

If other cushions dont install like mine did I see how that could be a problem, and installing a harder cushion expecting it to rid the "wobbles" is a pipe dream. unless it has a certian amount of "preload" as I experienced while installing my cushion/truck assembly. Your not soon going to rid yourself of the "unstabalized" feeling without shims or a cushion with just a bit more meat on it.

If you ask me the cushing needs more material in some areas and less in others to allow for the deformation to happen to be able to turn with a little less ramp up.

I find my Arius to corner just as well as a DA45 of similar setup and plate length, with much less weight, more stability and much more precision. -I'll gladly get the exact information on my friends skate if people want to hate-

I wouldn't mind at all to pay up to 40 more dollars for this plates original package cost if the cushions were the only change so long as their design was signifcantly better. I currently roll the 80A cushions. I think a good bet would be the 83A hardness with some modifications so they would flex alot more without binding. this should allow for a nice firm center while being extremely easy to manuver. the "ramp up" is something I like and honestly it doesn't let me OVER turn unless I'm on a grippy floor which can take that kind of agility with someone at my weight/height.

All in all, I think far too many skaters expect their plate to turn for them, or do too much of the turning for them.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 08:44 PM   #36
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Default Interesting Mort....

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All in all, I think far too many skaters expect their plate to turn for them, or do too much of the turning for them.
I have been following the Arius plate with intrest since it is a cool concept, however, I don't think anything will get me off the NTS SS royal.

That being said, Your quote stuck a chord with me, I feel the same way you do, only in the "Bizarro Mort" version. My quote would be "All in all, I think far too many skaters expect their plate to not turn for them, or do too much of the not turning for them".

In my mind, the skate should turn unless you make it go straight, and by simply allowing your feet/ankles to roll it should turn on its own till the point you stop it.
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Old July 11th, 2014, 09:08 PM   #37
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I have been following the Arius plate with intrest since it is a cool concept, however, I don't think anything will get me off the NTS SS royal.

That being said, Your quote stuck a chord with me, I feel the same way you do, only in the "Bizarro Mort" version. My quote would be "All in all, I think far too many skaters expect their plate to not turn for them, or do too much of the not turning for them".

In my mind, the skate should turn unless you make it go straight, and by simply allowing your feet/ankles to roll it should turn on its own till the point you stop it.
lol I know what you mean. It just seems like everyone expects a magic carpet ride of cornering insanity. When I have watched people on 5 degree prolines make turns that are unreal, its obviously not the plates but the user. Now I know not everyone can just take bricks and skii's and make them turn cause that lil guy on the proline is a skating freak.

Just like a lot of people could never see themselves turning an inline with a setup like mine. Part of being a good skater is knowing how to realy use whats on your feet. What ever that may be.
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Old July 14th, 2014, 04:01 PM   #38
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lol I know what you mean. It just seems like everyone expects a magic carpet ride of cornering insanity. When I have watched people on 5 degree prolines make turns that are unreal, its obviously not the plates but the user. Now I know not everyone can just take bricks and skii's and make them turn cause that lil guy on the proline is a skating freak.

Just like a lot of people could never see themselves turning an inline with a setup like mine. Part of being a good skater is knowing how to realy use whats on your feet. What ever that may be.
Is he really turning or is he lifting wheels and pivoting. He could also be using foot placement to make nearly impossibly sharp changes in direction no? I don't necessarily think there is anything wrong with he plate. I skate it on blues just fine. I can turn sharper than most on the team but I know it could do better. Yes I could use edges and pivoting and foot placement to turn even sharper than the plate allows but I want to see if I can make the Arius as controllable as it is on blues while on something as soft and responsive as the ~32a silicone cushions I molded.

They turned as sharply as the plate could go (nearly a 1foot circle) but I do not have the ankle stability to keep them upright while skating (MY LIMITATION). I don't blame the plate but I do want a stop gap, something manageable with better range of motion.

Mort you are welcome to try the cushions (heck I could probably make a set of cones for a traditional plate, would take some time to make a new mold but it can be done) but I warn you they do not assist you in the least and you may just wish the skate would do some pushing back in the turns. Even the softest cushions I've been on (all blues on a 15deg) had 'snapback'. These do not.
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Old July 14th, 2014, 06:52 PM   #39
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I need to take my caliper and blues to work and modify them, then compare them to my worn in whites.

My trucks are due for a break down cleaning and regrease anyways, I like to make sure theres adequate lubrication on the "hinge pin" since its much like a door on an automobile, Lithium based grease works wonders, also i have not had any issues with the screw backing out and I have not had to set it to a crazy amount of torque either. Lubed in the correct points the pivoting only happens on one spot, and it cannot "grab" the hingepin and back it out.

I think the best idea would be less duro cushions, and more so ones molded for a "preload" setting where you would need to add pressure to the truck to even insert the hingepin.

Say 3 levels of preload available for 5 cushion durometers. which would be a total of 15 settings basicly. OR like I had said before some custom formed dowel inserts that could run up and down the butterfly cushion. removing them would give a small "hole" for more compression. the dowels would just need to be a little fatter on the ends so they wouldnt draw through the hole.

Theres a lot of ways to go, with it.

but for simplicity I think a preloaded cushion(too big- just slightly) with reliefes made in the mold in strategic areas would work best overall. less fuss, no dowels to potentially lose etc.


As for Scotties manuverability, hes got small feet anyways, and hes very light. ontop of that he can change pressures on his feet to modify his arc some and if thats not enough a quick replanting of his foot does the job, Its so fast you wouldnt see it unless you were explicitly paying attention. That kid on quads... its just stupid... I don't know what wheels hes got on there, he was rolling poison wides and BZerk's Psycho's(orange 88A) at our rink, but who knows what he likes in Ga. Softer wheels allow a little arc manipulation, well I should say, its easier to manipulate the softer, thicker urethanes, so that probably helps too.

I'm sure at a well coated floor with a hard wheel on an aluminum hub hed have to adjust some technique, but I wouldn't expect him to be any less manuverable because hed have more grip than hed know what to do with.
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Old July 22nd, 2014, 02:35 PM   #40
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Default Arius Butterfly Cushions

20.00 a set MSRP (kinda) Pricy. On a per piece basis, as much as Roll Line cushions.

#122693 71A Orange (4)
#122694 74A Aqua (4)
#122695 77A Lavender (4)
#122696 80A White (4)
#122697 83A Light Blue (4)
#122698 86A Yellow Grn (4)
#122699 89A Royal Blue (4)
#122700 92A Red (4)
#122701 95A Hot Pink (4)

Just spreading the news.
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