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Old February 20th, 2014, 09:17 PM   #1
llama of death
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Default Mods for Arius Cushions

Hey, seeing as there are a few people who have them and are looking into modding the cushions, I was hoping we could pull together and thinktank this to fruition.

*Not to mention at $20 a set I do not have the money to try all the variations myself.*

Identified "problems" with Powerdyne Arius cushion system (last up dated 12/20/14)

1) cushions squeeze out when compressed causing a known binding issue on all known cushion hardnesses (though it is easier to see in the soft ones).*see figures 1.1 and 1.2*

2) some have noticed a undocumented binding issue internal to the Action housing. This may be caused by friction between the cushion and the walls of the plate and hanger.




*****************************************************

My ideas so far:
Cut the walls of the cushions to be convex. *see fig.2* This may relive issue 1, and allow further movement of the hanger in the housing. I will try this out this weekend and see if it makes any appreciable difference.


fig.1
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Old February 20th, 2014, 09:19 PM   #2
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Please post any comments or descriptions of your own experiments so we do not have to all be trying the same experiments individually.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 09:46 PM   #3
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How many cushions ya got? Try it on the least useful ones and see what works and doesn't bind. Save the good ones for what you know works.

Can't make eggs without bacon, or something like that.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 09:59 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Sidewinder View Post
How many cushions ya got? Try it on the least useful ones and see what works and doesn't bind. Save the good ones for what you know works.

Can't make eggs without bacon, or something like that.
That's the plan. I have the basic set of 4 hardnesses that come in the box. I have nearly no use for the harder sets Dark-Blue and Red, I am skating the blues and am happy with them as is (could be better but they are my current faveorite), and the greens are a close second but I would like them to allow a deeper turn.

I will probably start at the top using 2 cushions at a time (to compare a non-mod to a full mod). Refine my theories as I get closer to the greens which will be the last to get modded (unless I buy or am sent more).

*It's 'you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs'. Though I imagine you already knew that.*
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Old February 20th, 2014, 10:10 PM   #5
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I thought they came with a bunch. To me, it looks like the inner is binding and deforming to the outer. So, the outer would be cool if the inner was relieved a little bit. Like it acts like a triangle would where the horizontal meets the vertical and with the forces pushing down on it. Round it off a little bit, even a few uneven creases or folds and it would be alright methinks.

I'm no cushionologist, but the experimentation is usually the fun bit.
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Old February 20th, 2014, 10:41 PM   #6
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I think a better avenue would be to "swiss cheese" holes in the cushion, then it can expand internally, removing substance from the wall will give the "hanger" nothing to hold it steady when in a neutral position, allowing it "lash", I'd heat a 20penny nail and poke it tru, several times, in an excellently ventilated environment.

I'd start with a long #6 finish nail to see what happens when it's pushed tru, vice grips will be adequate for grip(for the nail), something on the other side of the cushion that the nail can fit into but will secure the rest of the cushion.

It's always going to be "ramping" up to a stop (the cushion) but it might be possible to lessen the ramp until the actual limit.

Drilled brake rotors are actually cast with the holes, they aren't drilled afterwards, possibly if something like holes worked they could be poured with holes, bet the company's paying attention to the feedback
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Old February 21st, 2014, 12:25 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ursle View Post
I think a better avenue would be to "swiss cheese" holes in the cushion, then it can expand internally, removing substance from the wall will give the "hanger" nothing to hold it steady when in a neutral position, allowing it "lash", I'd heat a 20penny nail and poke it tru, several times, in an excellently ventilated environment.
Could work.

Tell me if this sounds crazy but silicone has similar properties to urethane as far as its tendency toward deformation. I have plaster and release agent which I know works for this combo of casting silicon objects in a plaster mold. I could produce a plaster mold (small run mold) and make a few silicon injection molds from it to test theories before I go and cut up a $5 cushion. Then if the prototype does not perform to concept I can make another run in a different concept. While Silicone is not the intended final product it should be an inexpensive way to make prototypes and test for binding and other fitment issues.

I could then move on to prototyping in castable urethane in 80a and 90a. Which seems to be inexpensive (32+S&H) and have high values for elongation and tear strength which should be valuable for this application. If it preforms as planned I could just use this to cast my own cushions (even in the same format as the originals at 80a they should act like the OEMs or at least close, though I would rather buy replacements instead of make them as I have less and less time to spend as I get older and busier)

-problems with this include but are not limited to: possible failed molds (loss of time and small amount of material), while silicon 'acts like' urethane it does not have nearly the hardness nor the tensile strength to be a long term solution,... I'm certain there are other problems.
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Old February 21st, 2014, 05:02 AM   #8
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As cool as that sounds, unless you have casted urethane, it usually ends up being a huge pain in the a$$. Depends on type though. I did some for rock models for model trains at one point and have tried some of the gooier stuff for dance plugs with kind of poor results. Some of the resins aren't bad, but end up in the way too hard zone in casual use. I do use silicone plugs for powdercoating, which may be an interesting thing should you go the swiss cheese route. As far as I know, they do compress unlike urethane and you don't have to wait for them to cure, etc. etc. and are fairly cheap. I usually get mine off ebay. Be a pretty cool way to tune since they are tapered and could be inserted either up or down depending on desired compression direction.

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Old February 21st, 2014, 05:23 AM   #9
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If you read the blog post I did on these plates you would see that I did this already. It's simple. You're over thinking it. Cut one step harder than you are comfortable on. don't bother with drilling holes. Belt sander or bandsaw.
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Old February 21st, 2014, 07:29 AM   #10
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I personally like the idea of potentially using the swiss cheese method. Which if done right could add "tuneability" to the cushion. Imagine having a hole you can stick a dowel(uhmwpe dowel anyone) in to add a small.amount of firmness to the suspension. Maybe he size of a coffee straw.

Theres a few ways to go about it, as I do not have them in my hands yet I cannot make a good call on what would work well. Possibly a small combination of trimming/sanding/drilling?
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Old February 21st, 2014, 09:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skate mech View Post
If you read the blog post I did on these plates you would see that I did this already. It's simple. You're over thinking it. Cut one step harder than you are comfortable on. don't bother with drilling holes. Belt sander or bandsaw.
Yeah, don't hold your breath. He couldn't understand a simple explanation of sport and short plates, and has since described them wrong to others. And thinks there is confusion on what they are.

This guy has a little Dillo in him.

I think he is going to discover America soon. No one can convince him it has already been done.
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Old February 21st, 2014, 11:33 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
I personally like the idea of potentially using the swiss cheese method. Which if done right could add "tuneability" to the cushion. Imagine having a hole you can stick a dowel(uhmwpe dowel anyone) in to add a small.amount of firmness to the suspension. Maybe he size of a coffee straw.

Theres a few ways to go about it, as I do not have them in my hands yet I cannot make a good call on what would work well. Possibly a small combination of trimming/sanding/drilling?
I know it's semi-off topic regarding the Arius (sorry llama), but Mort did you ever see these? I did a few a while back. Allowed me to tune my Revenge to super perfect. Since the cushion would deform into the holes, I was able to get a bit more extension where I wanted it before the rebound started. Was pretty trick I thought as far as tuning. I ended with them on the bottom and top with different sized slits just from feeling out the results obtained over a few weeks. Had a great time with it.





Like I said though, the experimentation was the fun bit.
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Old February 21st, 2014, 05:57 PM   #13
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Default Cool looking for sure.. .

I find it easier to vary the height of or eliminate the lip altogether, which effectively changes the height of the cushion.. Most often I just use a flat washer like Laser did back in the day..

I get the action as free as possible mechanically then adjust the tension to suit..

Can you equate the effects of the slots to preload?? I'm curious if you actually achieved a tuning variability that could not be achieved by the adjuster nut..
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Old February 21st, 2014, 06:21 PM   #14
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Can you equate the effects of the slots to preload?? I'm curious if you actually achieved a tuning variability that could not be achieved by the adjuster nut..
I did. I could switch to a harder cushion with bigger holes and get the benefit of a larger snap back without having the stiffness associated with being on a harder cushion. Was very interesting to experiment with. I tried Delrin spacers and a couple other things as well, none with as good of results as I got with the notched retainers.

In the end with that Revenge, I just absolutely hated the toe-stop angle. I was 100% happy with the action and tuning it for summer/winter and different wheels, but that toe stop angle I just could not change. I might try it on the Venus'. I'm not 100% happy with the cushions as stock. But I've got to get off my backside from watching the Olympics before I get to any of that. lol.
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Old February 21st, 2014, 06:28 PM   #15
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Quote:
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If you read the blog post I did on these plates you would see that I did this already. It's simple. You're over thinking it. Cut one step harder than you are comfortable on. don't bother with drilling holes. Belt sander or bandsaw.
I have read your blog and have noted your approach. In fact I regularly reread articles on it and have many bookmarked.

---excerpt---

They felt very odd at first, the faster I went, the more they would wobble, but they were very easy to adjust to that wobble. It eventually went away and I tried to get them to turn. Turning sharp required so much effort that I needed to take them off after 15 minutes of skating. My feet hurt that much. I had installed the softest butterfly cushions included in the box. The light blue ones. Hmm. Some fix would be required if I were to skate these for real.

Lacing on my derby skates I returned to the floor. Wow. My short forward Advantage plates with all yellow SG supers on full loose felt sluggish and slow to react.

I performed some modifications to the yellow butterfly cushions and installed them.



They felt very odd at first, the faster I went, the more they would wobble, but they were very easy to adjust to that wobble. It eventually went away and I tried to get them to turn. Turning sharp required so much effort that I needed to take them off after 15 minutes of skating. My feet hurt that much. I had installed the softest butterfly cushions included in the box. The light blue ones. Hmm. Some fix would be required if I were to skate these for real.

Lacing on my derby skates I returned to the floor. Wow. My short forward Advantage plates with all yellow SG supers on full loose felt sluggish and slow to react.

I performed some modifications to the yellow butterfly cushions and installed them.

I skated about 2 hours at a derby practice on Monday night. Huge difference in how they act now. VERY easy to turn, yet very stable. Nearly no foot pain. Very nimble. I was pleasantly surprised by how much I liked them. They skate like a very precise DA45. Every tiny movement you make is immediately noticeable.


going on to say "I will need to work on it some more to get them exactly right for me. I will likely go stiffer or la bit less action in the front. "

The results didn't seem very satisfactory to you, from how I read your article. Cutting off the, for a lack of better term, 'points' of the cushion is a neat idea and I plan on confirming it's results. I simply did not want to go around and link everything when I created the thread. If you wouldn't mind I am certain we would all love to hear the specifics of the modification and a more detailed explanation of the results of the experiment. As far as I can tell your mod looked like this:


As has been pointed out by many SLF members what works for you may not work for others. Besides, there is no harm in condensing all the versions of mods into one place. Nor in trying out more than one mod to see what they do. This is experimentation at its most fun! Enjoy the ride and let yourself be open to the options it creates.


Rufus, there is no need to be rude. I simply never did understand your way of explaining the short forward mount, it is a communications problem between you and I. We both interpreted the same article by Doc very differently. It is not cause for name calling or belittling people in public.
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Old February 21st, 2014, 08:39 PM   #16
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Dunno man. That blog excerpt kinda reads like one of them harlequin romance novels. Too much cushion for the pushin methinks.
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Old February 21st, 2014, 08:55 PM   #17
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Dunno man. That blog excerpt kinda reads like one of them harlequin romance novels. Too much cushion for the pushin methinks.
Perhaps, but it is a valid experiment none the less. One which I plan to study further, among others.
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Old February 21st, 2014, 08:59 PM   #18
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Perhaps, but it is a valid experiment none the less. One which I plan to study further, among others.
Agree, it seems like there are a number of different ways to go about it. Be interesting to see the results. Sounds like fun regardless. Have a great skate weekend with em.
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Old February 21st, 2014, 10:53 PM   #19
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I was going to drill holes. I had no desire to build a fixture to hold the cushions for drilling. When I mod things like this, I want them to all be the same. Laying out the hole locations seemed too much like work. I have no way to measure any of the terms that end up being bandied about. So doing multiple mods seemed tedious. Also only having 1 set of each of the butterfly cushions would prevent me from doing a "proper" anecdotal comparison.

I should add that after the blog entry was posted, I skated 2 more practices and reffed half a game in them. The skates were much easier to control after more time on them (go figure), and I have procured a proper fitting pair of boots for them to be mounted to and put through their paces after I return from Mens Roller Derby World Cup.

I do like these plates. I like freedom of action and easy turning. I'm not a big guy, so needing to put a bunch of effort into making the plates turn a bit is inefficient for me. That's all I got for now.
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Old February 22nd, 2014, 03:32 AM   #20
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Question Just An Observation On These Plates...

Looking at some of the posted photos in various threads showing where the "Butterflies" bind up on the plate, it looks as though the butterflies perhaps should taper down in diameter/size as they leave the plate & head to the truck...

If that idea worked perhaps some material on the "Trucks" could also be removed since the Butterflies wouldn't be as large at that end any longer...

Derrick......
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