S k a t e L o g     F o r u m
Inline Skating and Quad Roller Skating
Forum Hosts: Jessica Wright | Kathie Fry

FOLLOW US: Our Blog | Facebook | Twitter | Email    


Home - Forum Index - Africa Skating - Asia Skating - Europe Skating - Oceania Skating - Pan America Skating - Roller_Rinks - Friend the SkateLog Forum in Facebook - SkateLog Forum on Facebook

Forum Administrators: Jessica Wright and Kathie Fry | Email Us
Access code for buying and selling subforums: "skates"
How To Get a User Account and Posting Privileges in the SkateLog Forum
Use Google to Search the SkateLog Forum

Go Back   SkateLog Forum > Special Interest Skating Forums (sorted by number of posts) > Roller Derby Forum
FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Roller Derby Forum Discussions about banked-track and flat-track roller derby events, teams, skaters, and training methods.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 5th, 2016, 02:08 PM   #1
Juice_
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 5
Default SG Avenger Skate/Plate Tuning

Hello All,

I've read many similar threads here on the forum regarding SG Avengers and I'm having trouble make sense of all of it. I'm gonna spit out some basics here to hopefully keep it short.

I'm a derby skater, primarily a jammer. I'm 5'1 and about 125 lbs. For two years, I skated on basic Sure Grip Rebels with a Probe plate. I changed those up eventually too better bearings and purple cushions and loosened the trucks. And was using 88a Heartless wheels (loved these suckers). We skate on a mix of floors, Mondays its super sticky sport court and on Thursday it is polished concrete.

I upgraded to a new sure grip boot (which I love) and a sport mounted SG Avenger plate with purple cushions, trucks tighten all the way down and same wheels. I could immediately tell these plates were different but not in a bad way, just different. My issue is - I cannot for the life of me plow stop anymore. I cannot get chatter. I just glid and slide and go and never stop.

Is this a technique issue? I have a feeling it is due to the fact that the axle is now located in a different place along my foot.

Any advice?
Juice_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2016, 03:41 PM   #2
Shazzamm1971
Still Learning.....
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Calgary by way of Lethbridge
Posts: 11
Default Why are you running such a stiff set up?

If your using SG Purple cushions at your weight your doing it all wrong. Work your way from Purple to yellow to BLUE with progressively looser action. Actually just go get the blues and start there with preload (cranked down). Make sure you adjust the pivot pin with each change of the kingpin nut preload. Should just be seated with no slop and not jacking the truck hanger either. Find the sweet spot. I use an 81 duro floor side and a 85 duro cushion skate side and weigh 210Lbs. My daughter is closer to your weight at 85lbs and with the blue SG cushions in she prefers the blues with a half turn on the kingpin nut. She has only been running this plate for a week and absolutely rocks it.
Your setup with the "purples with adjuster cranked down" is so wrong. Whoever set up you skates or gave you the advice needs to back away from the wrench.
Shazzamm1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2016, 03:46 PM   #3
Juice_
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shazzamm1971 View Post
Make sure you adjust the pivot pin with each change of the kingpin nut preload. Should just be seated with no slop and not jacking the truck hanger either.
Can you explain this more clearly? Maybe I'll go ask YouTube, I'm a pretty visual person anyway.
Juice_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2016, 05:07 PM   #4
Armadillo
Senior Member
 
Armadillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 6,537
Default

In a nutshell, this is your problem:
Your 88A wheels are too soft for the improved action of the Avenger plate, which keeps the wheels in better contact with the floor for their full width as you lean the plate.

The 88A wheels have too large a contact patch & grip for your light weight, unless they tip up off the floor some, which the Avenger design minimizes.

Yes, going softer on cushions is smart, but won't help unless you also, more importantly, go firmer on the wheel duro.

The Avenger plates should still maintain adequate grip for you using decent wheels in the low 90's duro range, and even with their keeping wheels down on floor more, they should be able to break free from the floor enough to do the plow stops with some chatter.

-Armadillo
__________________
Rollin' on AIR
Armadillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2016, 06:27 PM   #5
Juice_
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
In a nutshell, this is your problem:
Your 88A wheels are too soft for the improved action of the Avenger plate, which keeps the wheels in better contact with the floor for their full width as you lean the plate.

The 88A wheels have too large a contact patch & grip for your light weight, unless they tip up off the floor some, which the Avenger design minimizes.

Yes, going softer on cushions is smart, but won't help unless you also, more importantly, go firmer on the wheel duro.

The Avenger plates should still maintain adequate grip for you using decent wheels in the low 90's duro range, and even with their keeping wheels down on floor more, they should be able to break free from the floor enough to do the plow stops with some chatter.

-Armadillo
I have some yellow cushions, will switch those out.

In some ways it just feels counter-intuitive to use harder (i.e. slicker) wheels when all I'm already doing is sliding during my plows, no?

I will take the suggestion though and borrow some wheels from a friend and go skate around tonight to see how it feels.
Juice_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 5th, 2016, 08:44 PM   #6
Armadillo
Senior Member
 
Armadillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 6,537
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juice_ View Post
I have some yellow cushions, will switch those out.

In some ways it just feels counter-intuitive to use harder (i.e. slicker) wheels when all I'm already doing is sliding during my plows, no?

I will take the suggestion though and borrow some wheels from a friend and go skate around tonight to see how it feels.
Yes, I misread that OP, and harder will likely slide more.
If wheels are sliding without slowing you, then wheels obviously aren't gripping, and harder will likely grip less. Are there any grooves left in the 88A wheels? 88A wheels should not lose ALL all their plow stopping grip from just the plate swap. How many other wheel sets have you tried on the new plates?

Sometimes if the wheel contact patch is too large, the wheel can ride up on top of the floor's dirt/dust breaking grip. On a dusty floor, a firmer wheel with fresh grooves can often plow stop better than a soft wheel with no grooves.
The grooves accept the dirt and keep the urethane from being pried up off the floor by dirt/dust.

How dirty are the 88A wheels and how dirty/dusty is the is the floor?
Do 88A wheels slide out on turns too, with the Advantage plates, when you are going fast?
Dusty floors neutralize grip for both firm and soft wheels, especially when grooves are shallow or missing.

-Armadillo
__________________
Rollin' on AIR
Armadillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2016, 12:45 AM   #7
Mort
Sk8 Ninja
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Huntington Wv
Posts: 3,119
Default

Aside from suspensions....



Nuts on the axle too thight can cause a "no chatter" as stops or slides are performed.

I had a pair of RBT'S set up with glued in bearings, spacers etc. Everything was solid, wheels would freespin perfectly, but the hockey stop noise could not be made. Same thing with a pair of Faster grips. Bearings werent glued in but they had spacers and were locked down on the axle. Freespin was perfect as well, no hockey stop noise. Sure grip zombies MAX 89A spacer setup, locked down wheels, same thing again.

Too tight of a fit sometimes makes it harder to get that vibration your seeking. Its good at providing feedback thats for sure.
__________________
Home rink: Roll-A-Rama in Huntington Wv.
"Focus on form and speed is a byproduct, focus on speed and falling is a byproduct." - Matguy
Mort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2016, 05:42 AM   #8
Armadillo
Senior Member
 
Armadillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 6,537
Default

Yes Mort, a good chance the Avenger axles are a tighter fit to the wheel bearings and not enough slop remains for the chatter to develop as much.

-Armadillo
__________________
Rollin' on AIR
Armadillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2016, 01:23 PM   #9
Juice_
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armadillo View Post
Yes, I misread that OP, and harder will likely slide more.
If wheels are sliding without slowing you, then wheels obviously aren't gripping, and harder will likely grip less. Are there any grooves left in the 88A wheels? 88A wheels should not lose ALL all their plow stopping grip from just the plate swap. How many other wheel sets have you tried on the new plates?

This set of 88a's are relatively brand new, purchased 3 weeks ago. I haven't tried other wheel sets.

Sometimes if the wheel contact patch is too large, the wheel can ride up on top of the floor's dirt/dust breaking grip. On a dusty floor, a firmer wheel with fresh grooves can often plow stop better than a soft wheel with no grooves.
The grooves accept the dirt and keep the urethane from being pried up off the floor by dirt/dust.

How dirty are the 88A wheels and how dirty/dusty is the is the floor?
Do 88A wheels slide out on turns too, with the Advantage plates, when you are going fast?
Dusty floors neutralize grip for both firm and soft wheels, especially when grooves are shallow or missing.

The sport court we skate on Mondays is pretty gross, dirty, dusty. On Thursdays, the polished concrete is pretty clean.

The 88a's are slim (35mm) and slide out in turns too regardless of my set up. I can slide out on turns on my 84a's (38mm) doing speed laps. I'm very light on my feet and at speed, sliding out has always been a problem but I've learned to navigate that as I've become a more experienced skater. I've always been able to stop on a dime. Right now with the avengers, I can't seem to get that same brake.

I'm going to put my 84a's on my Avengers, and try them at practice tomorrow.

Thank you for ALL the help.

Oh and I went and made sure to correctly adjust my pivot pins.
Juice_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 6th, 2016, 04:05 PM   #10
Armadillo
Senior Member
 
Armadillo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Chicago, Near the Lake
Posts: 6,537
Default

Juice,

The polished concrete floor test with 84A will be useful, and more so if they are cleaned all the way to the bottom of the grooves (if they have any - that soft often don't), and not too much tightened on the axles either.
You have to start seeing some grip at this low duro level - maybe too much even (and too little/slow roll as well).

The Advantage plates, with their high foot platforms, are likely to be putting the the sole higher up off the floor than before, which tends to make the skates somewhat more laterally tippy, and also makes leaning over onto outer wheels' outer edges happen more easily than before. This should normally raise grip in plow stops though, even preventing slide and rolling ankles over, so something seems abnormal with your situation.

The softer yellow cushions, and eventually the blue ones could help a lot for keeping wheels down on floor with uniform distribution of pressure between them and across their full lateral rolling track width. but they will slightly worsen the plates tipiness from less available suspension stiffness for tight control of plates lean angle.
They should certainly reduce slipping in turns by maintaining a more consistent, uniform size contact patch between all the wheels, but they may not so much help with the plow stopping issues.

-Armadillo
__________________
Rollin' on AIR

Last edited by Armadillo; April 13th, 2016 at 07:52 PM.
Armadillo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 9th, 2016, 06:50 AM   #11
jackbkwikn
ALTAMURA
 
jackbkwikn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 1,259
Default

Agree with the cushion change, Blue for you....
But i have to ask is the new plate in the exact same location.Meaning same size and axel location compared to the probe.
__________________
ALTAMURA'S
jackbkwikn is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 13th, 2016, 10:01 AM   #12
rufusprime99
Ninja Naked Mole Rat
 
rufusprime99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: L.A., Ca
Posts: 5,631
Default Plow stop / Chatter

As mentioned, you get some more grip with this plate. Chatter might be a thing of the past, unless you go to a harder wheel. Chatter is essentially the wheel losing grip. More grip with this plate = less likelihood of chatter.

As far as actually stopping, man, I can't remember a universally useful recommendation for that. You sound like an experienced skater, so, do what works. Wider is better for some, I tend to do that, or just play with it until you find what works for you. Just remember, chatter is less likely and not a good indicator of proper form with this plate.
__________________
Don't let people live in your head rent free. ~princessfluffhead~ BontQRL/InvaderDA45: Seba-FRX: Alkali CA9
rufusprime99 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 18th, 2016, 04:33 AM   #13
fierocious1
Senior Member
 
fierocious1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,888
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mort View Post
Aside from suspensions....



Nuts on the axle too thight can cause a "no chatter" as stops or slides are performed.

I had a pair of RBT'S set up with glued in bearings, spacers etc. Everything was solid, wheels would freespin perfectly, but the hockey stop noise could not be made. Same thing with a pair of Faster grips. Bearings werent glued in but they had spacers and were locked down on the axle. Freespin was perfect as well, no hockey stop noise. Sure grip zombies MAX 89A spacer setup, locked down wheels, same thing again.

Too tight of a fit sometimes makes it harder to get that vibration your seeking. Its good at providing feedback thats for sure.
I set my bearing clearance at exactly 1/2 turn out from tight, Scares the crap out of everybody in 20 ft doing a T stop.
fierocious1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.