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Old November 14th, 2015, 04:32 AM   #1
Auric
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Question Mounting Snyder plates: what to do about rivets?

Howdy!

Help please!
I am experimenting, going to try skating with different skate wheel bases to see which one feels best to me. I have been skating off and on for a long time, since I was a teenager, over 35 years ago.
I've gotten a couple of Snyder Super Deluxe plates, one a size 11, the other size 9 to use on my size 10 boots. I'm not sure what to do about the rivets on the boot side of the plate. They stick up so the plate does not make full contact on the boot. The boots I'm using for these do not have leather heels.
What do ya'll do about the rivets? Mark where the rivets are, then somehow make a depression? Ignore the rivets?

Hope you don't mind if I share with you a couple of things I've come up with. But it might be stuff you've seen before. Because I am going to mount more than one plate, I thought it would be a good idea to make some sort of holder with a "tie-down." I used scraps of wood, 4 cup holders and a rubber exercise thingee I had laying around.





I've read a lot of the posts about plate positioning on the forum. Thank you all for sharing that wisdom on the forum! I like/agree with Doc about centering the plate using the overhang of the wheels. I found that by putting wide wheels on the axles, I could measure the distance from the outside wheel rim (at the axle) to the boot sole on each side with an upside down combination square, then move the plate until the measurement was the same on both wheels. I will do that on front and rear wheels



I'm also trying to put the front wheels under the ball of the foot, or there abouts. How does this look? Please excuse the unruly masking tape. I'm using it to mark the plate position and mounting holes.





Any comments or suggestions?

Thanks in advance for your help!
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Old November 14th, 2015, 05:20 AM   #2
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Hello Auric. Looks like a Doc skate post or something one of the setup oriented members like Okie or Armadillo may tune into. Personally, I like the prep work. Thanks for sharing the photos and process.

It has been my experience that the mounting is a mixture of art and science.

You mentioned that you were experimenting with different wheel bases. I would also throw in a suggestion for the Bont Infinity plate. It allows for this sort of adjustment.

Bont Infinity Plate

Granted, they don't have a 10 degree assembly yet, but they do have a 20 degree as opposed to the 45. Just a thought if your current plate variation doesn't work out.

Before committing to drilling those holes after the pain staking measurements, I would run a "temp mount" first. This consists of just buying some very short screws to run into the plate. Skate the temp mount for one session (going easy on the skate mind you). If it feels right, commit to the drill. Otherwise, it is no great loss to just plug the holes with some Quicksteel epoxy putty and run new screws/holes.

I don't know if this addressed any questions you may have had, but I hope it helps!

*Edit* Oh! The rivets portions of your question - I have heard some just sand them down a bit. Of course, you can't sand down flush as that might compromise the rivet. Over time, if you have some weight on you, the leather sole will just press over them... in time. Again, no special solutions on that one either.
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Old November 14th, 2015, 12:32 PM   #3
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If you were mounting them to bonts you would remove the rivets and replace them with nuts and bolts, flush bolts tru the bottom, leaves a flat plate.

As long as the plates get put in the correct "place" however you get them there it's all good. Deciding upon front axle placement forward to rearward is the only real question, your axle to axle distance is already done (use the shorter ones) every little bit more forward that front axle is gives you more stability at speed, but takes away from the action of the skate, with 10 degree plates, you don't have any action to spare.
The mounting block is handy, I use just a piece of 2x6, if you use t-nuts as fasteners(plate to boot), you'll find that they are effortless (after having mounted your hangers to your plates)
It might be a tough task, but looking for past pictures of snyder plates with the nubs that are in your way removed, will help, chances are contacting any bont dealer will be a help in removing the rivets, they have to modify snyders for bont boots.
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Old November 14th, 2015, 02:36 PM   #4
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Diagetus, Thanks for the suggestion about the Bont Plate.
Actually, I've gotten 5 different wheel base length used plates, all used off eBay. Gonna try 'em all hahaha. Just two were the Snyders. All going to have to replace cushions, and pivot cups, etc. as they are all old. After getting all of the plates, I found a local skate shop and saw the Bont Infinity plate. The shop owner told me the Bont Infinity plate is more expensive than the Arius. At this point, I'm going with what I have already gotten, but using the Infinity would have been much easier to use for what I am trying to learn. Between the cost of the used plates, and the boots I've gotten (New old stock and used) the Infinity set up might have been less expensive. But I'm having fun putting it all together.
Once I find the best wheelbase for me, I might spring for a new lighter weight plate (than the Snyder Super Deluxe), a new light boot, and sell the ones I've put together.

Thanks for the suggestion to sand the rivets down a bit. I just tried that using a dremel tool. Boy, those rivets are tough steel! I was going to reduce the height a little, flatten them a little, but keeping the same contact surface area on the top of the skate. But the rivets are still keeping the plate from having good contact on the hard heel.
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Old November 14th, 2015, 03:34 PM   #5
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ursle, Thanks for your information about wheel position and suggestions about the rivets.

I don't think removing the rivets is an option. Dang, those suckers are hard! Also they hold the hangers to the plate on the Snyders.

Yep yep yep, tee nuts are the way to go. My last regular skates was Nike Cross Training shoes mounted with tee nuts to an ole Roller Derby plate.
The old skates are way comfortable, maybe the upper leather was too soft, too much give. Those skates had a 7 1/2" wheelbase on a size 10 shoe.



What happened was that I decided to get a new pair of skates from an on-line retailer. I was looking for nicer skates, but not too expensive.
I got a new pair with art boots and reliable Sure-grip low end plates. Should have been good enough for me.
When I skated with the new skates, I had problems switching from backwards skating to forwards skating using a Mohawk turn. Weird it was.

Also, the right tongue was terrible about slipping to the left. I sewed a piece of leather to the tongue to hold the tongue in place, but that barely helped.
Still had to stop and move the tongue every 20 - 30 minutes of skating! The new skate had the same wheelbase as the old one.
I switched back and forth between new and old skates, the new ones had something wrong with them.
Finally, I saw that the position of the new skates plates was about 1/2" forward of the rear heel. hmmm . . . . only difference I saw.

Doing research online, I found this forum, and learned that might NOT be the problem. Also learned about shorter wheelbases here. Very Interesting!
So my decision to experiment and find what works best for me was started.


My first new mount used the new skates' boots. I used a 7 1/4" wheelbase old Dominon Marathon 2 plate.
Using the centering of wheels to boot system I found the right boot that had tongue problems had the previous plates mounted about 3/8" off from where it should have been. Gee!
Can't trust pre-assembled skates all the time is what I learned.
With the new mount, the tongue problem is gone, and I'm not having the Mohawk problem anymore


The slightly shorter wheelbase skate seems quicker to respond.
I'm looking forward to seeing how much faster the shorter wheelbase skates will be and hope I don't fall on my butt too much while adjusting hahaha

I'm excited to try the famous Snyder Super Deluxe with a slightly shorter wheelbase.
Just have to get around the rivets (or not?)
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Old November 14th, 2015, 04:04 PM   #6
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Default This is how we do it, if you are big into instructions.



I do not recommend trying to remove the rivets unless you have access to machine tools. A milling machine will work, a wire EDM is probably best. When Snyder repairs a plate with a bad hanger they use a cold chisel to remove the the offending hanger. This is fatal to the hanger in the vast majority of cases.

When I mount Bont boots to Snyder plates I special order the plates without the hangers riveted on. I thread the hangers to take fine pitch machine screws. @ this point you can either screw the hangers to the plate or sandwich the plate between the boot and hangers using longer screws. This approach allow you to use other than Snyder plates between the hanger and boot if you wish.

This is an example of that type of construction:



Note the screws in the hangers. These go through the boot, the plate and screw into the hangers. They also serve as the mounting screws. Yeah this is a lot of effort but so far it is paying off.



I'm not done looking for more weight reduction, I may be able to chase out a few more grams. I know I can drop another 40 grams by switching to FXX wheels vs these Scott Phantoms.

BTW this sk8 is built with sk8 parts, no other sporting goods (like soccer cleats) included. Granted there are some custom TI parts and the forged aluminum trucks have been narrowed a bit. Oh, the only plastic parts are the nylon axle nuts and Delrin (vs stock steel) pivot cups.

While I do not pretend this is the lightest sk8 I can build, (I have an Ultimate III that would easily knock another 100 grams off this) or the lightest sk8 out there, it is most likely the lightest true DA45 action sk8 on the planet.

Sk8s nicely but I think we may have gone a bit light on the unidirectional carbon boot shell. The sk8 has a tiny bit of flex.

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Old November 15th, 2015, 03:39 AM   #7
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Doc, Thanks so much for sharing the Snyder plate mounting instruction sheet.
Kind of involved, sanding the bottom of the boot level, marking where the rivets are, enlargen the marks, shallow drill to compensate for the rivet heads.

Gotta do whatcha gotta do.

May I ask about diagram 2 of the instructions?
Is the front axle (both axles?) usually exactly perpendicular to the center line?
Ooops, maybe I should ask if the center line (where the plates are mounted) should almost always point straight forward on the shoe?
I guess the foot is not always pointed straight forward.
In my case, when I stand, the heel is "inside" of the ball of the foot.
No! I am not pigeon-toed!! hahaha

Doc, the pictures of your build are AMZAING!!
Looks like a NASA Aerospace engineer designed this skate using parts of existing parts to create something strong and super lightweight!
Even the shoelaces are weight saving (cutting edge?)

So, the hangers are screwed/attached to the sole on the bottom by screws inside the boot/shoe?
So cool!!! How come they aren't all like this?
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Old November 15th, 2015, 05:06 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auric View Post
Doc, Thanks so much for sharing the Snyder plate mounting instruction sheet.
Kind of involved, sanding the bottom of the boot level, marking where the rivets are, enlargen the marks, shallow drill to compensate for the rivet heads.

Snyder was no joke back in the day. The build was precise and the technique was not the simplest in the world.

When I do a Snyder plate with rivets on a leather or plastic sole, I mount the plate and screw it down. Then I remove the plate and relief drill the marks made by the rivets. No big deal. Then reassemble.


Gotta do whatcha gotta do.

True that.

May I ask about diagram 2 of the instructions?

Does not look like I can stop you...

Is the front axle (both axles?) usually exactly perpendicular to the center line?

If they are not, then there is a problem. However determining where the "proper" center line is can be challenging. The basic answer is there is NO only right way to align a plate. I have my preferred method, some of our other members think it is still the 1950s and want to do it the old fashioned way. (like pic 2) Some of the builders @ the distributors and manufacturers use other alignments.... or maybe they just slap them on.

Ooops, maybe I should ask if the center line (where the plates are mounted) should almost always point straight forward on the shoe?

Actually, if you look close, you will note the center line is offset to the outside in figure 2. Also note the axle lines. If one goes for that alignment you wind up with a very short plate. Let me give you an example. The recommended wheelbase for a size 9 speed boot is 7". The recommended wheel base of a size 9 art boot (according to Snyder, Riedell has a different opinion) 6.75". I like to be between 6" and 6.33" on a speed boot myself. However, based on that diagram, even that is too long. The distance from the center of my heel to the center of the ball of my foot is 5.66" Inches on one foot and 5.75" on the other... Way shorter than I would even want to try..

Basically, there is a boat load of variables to consider to get the alignment just right for you and what you want to do. way too many sk8rs never even try to experiment. Since you have several plates, play away. You may be pleasantly surprised.

I guess the foot is not always pointed straight forward.
In my case, when I stand, the heel is "inside" of the ball of the foot.
No! I am not pigeon-toed!! hahaha

Your feet are, well, your feet. Depending on what is going on, you may need to deviate from the "standard" alignment. The line in diagram 2 makes some assumptions that may or may not be what you want to do.
1) It assumes that the center of the ball of the foot is located @ the widest part of the boot. It may not be..
2) It also assumes you want the front axle located under the center of the ball of your foot. You may not want this for recreational sk8ing (Or speed or derby for that matter)

Did you note the comment about Snyder boot marking tool?? It will generate the correct center line...Correct if you want the front axle under the center of the ball of your foot and the center of the ball of your foot is located @ the widest part of your boot. Otherwise, It is really only good for locating the point on the heel where the center line should go through.

Doc, the pictures of your build are AMZAING!!

Thanks.

Looks like a NASA Aerospace engineer designed this skate using parts of existing parts to create something strong and super lightweight! Even the shoelaces are weight saving (cutting edge?)

Do some looking around on the forum for Frankenplates. I started building hot rods before I could legally drive them. I developed this need to "improve" what comes out of the box. 22 years in the Air Force working on F111s, F15s and F16s kind of gave me the "aerospace eye" On top of that, doing process and quality testing / engineering in the automotive aftermarket after I retired from the AF didn't hurt either.

Oh, the laces and their attach loops and adjusting ratchet are the same weight as the regular laces and the grommets. Those wound up on there to see how they worked, not because they were lighter. Had they been heavier, there would have been regualr laces on the shoes. The boots were a custom build from Bont. We threw every trick we could think of the get the weight down (almost half as light) without sacrificing performance.. We may have gone a bit too far in the weight reduction as I mentioned previously.


So, the hangers are screwed/attached to the sole on the bottom by screws inside the boot/shoe?

That is correct. So, in essence, there are 8 mounting screws instead of the typical 4 found on Snyders.

So cool!!! How come they aren't all like this?
Probably because they are a real pain to mount this way. This is basically taking it to the lunatic fringe level. I do a lot of this stuff because I can. It does not always come out as practical...

Hmm, looks like I have been rambling.. Sorry about that...
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Old November 15th, 2015, 06:08 PM   #9
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umm . .. Don't worry Doc, if the Pertinent Police come around to issue you a ticket for "rambling"
I'll chase them off before they know what's happening hahaha

Your background is relevant, giving your opinon stature IMHO.
I'd rather hear empirical advice than theoretical anyday.
Theories may not take into consideration aspects outside of the experience of the theorist.
Theoretical models may be flawed.

To me, finding what does work is more important that what should work hahaha

Nothing wrong with taking it to the lunatic level if you want to want to excel.
I remember when it was crazy to think of putting a turbocharger, supercharger or fuel injection in a car to make it better.
Today, these things are pretty commonplace. Maybe in 20 years all skates will use the carbon sole as the plate.

In the meantime, I'm like Fred Flintstone in his foot driven, wooden frame, stone wheels type of rollerskate. Yabba-Dabba-Doooo!! hahaha
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Old November 22nd, 2015, 08:48 PM   #10
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Default Doc's gonna keeeel me

It might seem a little barbaric, but when I'm putting a rivet plate Snyder on a Bont or similar, I gently grind the rivets flush with the top of the plate. I use a fine tool stone on a bench grinder and do a little at a time to manage the heat.

The rivets hold by expanding in the hole, not by clamping the top and bottom, so the missing material appears not to matter.

I have a number of Royals on Bonts in derby service and have seen them all back at one time or another, but never for a hanger separating from the plate.
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Old November 22nd, 2015, 10:09 PM   #11
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Default Not @ all.

Done a few myself that way. Just not my preferred method.
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Old November 22nd, 2015, 10:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Auric View Post
Howdy!

Help please!
I am experimenting, going to try skating with different skate wheel bases to see which one feels best to me. I have been skating off and on for a long time, since I was a teenager, over 35 years ago.
I've gotten a couple of Snyder Super Deluxe plates, one a size 11, the other size 9 to use on my size 10 boots. I'm not sure what to do about the rivets on the boot side of the plate. They stick up so the plate does not make full contact on the boot. The boots I'm using for these do not have leather heels.
What do ya'll do about the rivets? Mark where the rivets are, then somehow make a depression? Ignore the rivets?

Hope you don't mind if I share with you a couple of things I've come up with. But it might be stuff you've seen before. Because I am going to mount more than one plate, I thought it would be a good idea to make some sort of holder with a "tie-down." I used scraps of wood, 4 cup holders and a rubber exercise thingee I had laying around.

I've read a lot of the posts about plate positioning on the forum. Thank you all for sharing that wisdom on the forum! I like/agree with Doc about centering the plate using the overhang of the wheels. I found that by putting wide wheels on the axles, I could measure the distance from the outside wheel rim (at the axle) to the boot sole on each side with an upside down combination square, then move the plate until the measurement was the same on both wheels. I will do that on front and rear wheels



I'm also trying to put the front wheels under the ball of the foot, or there abouts. How does this look? Please excuse the unruly masking tape. I'm using it to mark the plate position and mounting holes.



Any comments or suggestions?

Thanks in advance for your help!
OK, first of all, a top view of the boot over the protruding wheels would be more useful for assessing the mount location if the lens is centered between the the four wheels.
BTW, going up to the top of a ladder to get far away when shooting PIC help eliminate parallax distortion too.

Next, the place on the sole edge where you allow the adjustable square's ruler to make contact is what you need to evaluate as to whether Doc's approach or mine makes more sense.

If you keep the ruler and axle in same vertical plane as you measure, then the plate shifts laterally according to where the axles cross the curved sides of the sole. Doc has never given a clear explanation as to why the plate needs to be shifted laterally as the wheelbase increases or decreases in length, and the two spots where vertical plane thru front axle intersect the sole edge shift laterally in/out to follow the sole forefoot edge curves.

IMO, there is only one centerline that needs to align with the centerline of the plate, and that is the centerline through the area of the foot's contact with the ENTIRE boot sole, at location where that area gets divided optimum so that the FOOT can best deliver near ~50-50% equal plate lean weight/force leverage most effectively with either side of their foot onto this area and down through the suspension to the wheels.

If the boot sole is stiff, as it normally is with a Bont CF boot, I believe the foot works the action with leaning of the sole laterally happening as a single plane tilt motion with limited torsional flex twisting from end to end of the foot/boot. This means that, with a SINGLE lateral plate centerline location relative to the boot sole, the plates lateral plate lean resistance forces developed in the suspension should relay upward to the foot through the plate and boot sole very similarly regardless of what the wheelbase length happens to be, and where axle locations are shifted forward/rearward.

Each individual may have a slightly different line location along the length of their foot at which the foot's ability to apply force onto either lateral half of the plate remains about equal for either portion of the foot on each side of that line. However, once that equal lateral force foot area splitting line is established for a given individual, that line remains at the same place relative to the foot, regardless of how wheelbase length changes where the wheel axles are located relative to the foot's/sole's length.

I believe that the location of this equal downward foot force dividing line should typically intersect the plates centerline at the midpoint of the angled line drawn from the two points at the apexes of the sole forefoot lateral edge curve peaks.





With this concept, the measuring of wheel protrusion is always done from the outside face plane of wheel to the lateral forefoot sole edge curve peaks, and those peaks should always remain at near the same amount offset laterally from the plate's true centerline, regardless of the wheelbase or forward/rearward mount position of plate relative to the sole.

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Old December 1st, 2015, 03:47 AM   #13
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Thanks everyone for the help!

One more question . . . .

On the Snyder plates, maybe some others too, the toe stop is not in line with the kingpins. I read somewhere this is so that the toe stop is actually under the big toe to help with jumps.

So, if the plate with the offset toe stop is correctly positioned, the toe stop will "always" be approximately under the big toe?
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Old December 1st, 2015, 04:41 PM   #14
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Default Depends.

The center line of the plate does not change no matter where the toe stop is located. Assuming (yeah I know) you use the Snyder line, the toe stop will be closer to the big toe.

DO NOT compromise your alignment, which is used all the time, to get a toe stop in a particular place. If that was a critical factor, why would so many manufacturers put their stops in different places?
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Old December 2nd, 2015, 05:42 PM   #15
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Hey 'Dillo,

What model / brand of plate is that in your picture?
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Old December 2nd, 2015, 08:38 PM   #16
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Default The plate??

Ranalli
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Old December 4th, 2015, 12:08 AM   #17
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Thanks Doc for the info on that plate

Interesting . . . 'Dillo's got the 45 degree "blue" plate

Hmmm . . . .
In the ad, it shows 5 holes between kingpins, but 'Dillo's only has 2?

So the plate shown in the ad was a larger size plate,
and 'Dillo's using a very short/small size?

Or possibly problems with the plate prompted production changes (like lengthening the distance between the holes) on later batches of plates?
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Old December 4th, 2015, 05:14 PM   #18
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Default Don't overthink it.

Longer plates in this series had more holes. Simple enough. As far as what Dillo is doing? Your guess is as good as mine. I'm quite sure he will explain what he is up to. Wait for it.
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