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Roller Derby Forum Discussions about banked-track and flat-track roller derby events, teams, skaters, and training methods.

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Old March 24th, 2014, 01:39 PM   #1
steg505
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Default Roll Line plate and plow stops

Firstly hello, and nice to be a member after many months of anonymously stalking the forums!

I have a question about metal plates and plowing. I recently upgraded my skates from Suregrip rebels (plastic probe plate) to Riedell boots on a Roll-Line Mariner Cup plate, and my plow stops are really suffering. I used to be able to pull a very quick, very loud stop, but now I'm just sliding forward on my wheels, as if they are monumentally slippy. Not rolling, just sliding without much bite. It’s enough to stop, but not sharply, and no sound at all.

The wheel hardness is fine (91a); they are plenty grippy for corners etc on our sports floor, but regardless of how much I dig in, I cannot get back the screech and therefore bite that I’m used to. I assumed it just needed practise, but it’s been 3 months now, and after trying everything suggested on Derby Dialogue (softer cushions, harder cushions, longer plate(!), digging in unnaturally hard, weight distribution changes) I’m stumped. No-one else in my league can get a decent plow from them.

I’m aware that a metal plate is gonna be different for stopping, as it doesn’t flex - plus I’ve gone from a 10 to a 15 kingpin angle. But after recently trying out the Arius metal plate (which I could plow fine in), and Avengers, which I can also plow in, I’m wondering if there’s something else I’m missing? Has anyone else found this with Roll Lines? I love everything else about them, but my plow issue is killing my ability to jam properly! Any help or suggestions will be huuuugely appreciated!

[Wheels are 91a Prestos, plate length is 150mm on a [riedell] size 5 boot. I’m using medium & soft cushions.]
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Old March 24th, 2014, 02:16 PM   #2
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Going from 10 degrees to 18 degrees is a big difference, now the wheels are better at gripping, makes a 91a wheel act more like an 88a wheel, I'd suggest trying some 95a wheels, obviously, the 91a are't going to slide, don't get hurt doing the wrong thing.

Moving to a D/A45 (30degree) would make the wheels even more "grippy", the action allows the wheels to articulate and hence, better grip, the 10 degree just breaks traction before going up on their sides, savvy?

Metal vs plastic plates, the metal just loses less energy, it's not keeping you from sliding, it's the combination of hard wheels and 18 degree plates.
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Old March 24th, 2014, 02:23 PM   #3
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See that's what I was expecting - I thought I'd need to go up in wheel hardness when I bought the plate. But I'm actually finding the exact opposite - my wheels feel as if they're about 95a; I can't get the traction to plow; my feet are just sliding laterally forwards, skimming the floor (not shuddering, biting or sticking at all). If anything I feel like I've LOST grip, rather than gained it with the angle change.

Tl;dr: I have too much slide already!

(Thank you for your answer btw - the physics makes total sense, which is why I'm so utterly confused!)
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Old March 24th, 2014, 03:53 PM   #4
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Mybad, misunderstood, they use to to stop on a dime and now with a metal plate with more action they slide, well that other post was certainly entertaining to make but....back to the drawing board
And the avengers D/a45 stopped, stymied

Normally when going to a plate with more action harder duro wheels are needed, this is a great quandary, the question becomes, does else anyone with roll-line plates have a traction conundrum on sliding stops?
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Old March 24th, 2014, 04:16 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ursle View Post
Mybad, misunderstood, they use to to stop on a dime and now with a metal plate with more action they slide, well that other post was certainly entertaining to make but....back to the drawing board
And the avengers D/a45 stopped, stymied

Normally when going to a plate with more action harder duro wheels are needed, this is a great quandary, the question becomes, does else anyone with roll-line plates have a traction conundrum on sliding stops?
It's literally driving me nuts - to the point where I'm considering scrapping the whole plate and opting for something completely different (and lighter, hence the weight post in the other forum!) Gaahhhh!
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Old March 26th, 2014, 08:13 AM   #6
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so is the reality not the other way?

That when you had the plastic plate the plate was warping and providing you traction.

With the metal plate there is no flex so youre reliant on the action to take up the gap. but actually having the firmness of a metal plate means your wheel are off the floor?

have you tried a lower duro wheel?
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Old March 26th, 2014, 04:19 PM   #7
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At the action angle gets steeper, you need to have better control of the skates especially when plowing.

I primarily skate Avengers. When plowing I can make the wheels slide or bite depending on which edges I am pressing on. If I want to plow and let it slide, the skates get pressed on the inside edges. To make the wheels bite in, the outside edges get pressed.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 07:06 PM   #8
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I'm not familiar with Roll Lines, but thinking about what you're experiencing, I wonder if softer cushions and/or loosening up the trucks might help.
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Old March 26th, 2014, 09:50 PM   #9
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I's say if you can plow in Avengers, which should be harder to plow in, you will be fine in the Roll Lines.
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Old March 28th, 2014, 07:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kennedy View Post
I primarily skate Avengers. When plowing I can make the wheels slide or bite depending on which edges I am pressing on. If I want to plow and let it slide, the skates get pressed on the inside edges. To make the wheels bite in, the outside edges get pressed.
Ah maybe that's it - I'm on a mix of medium and soft bushings, which are quite a lot flexier than the yellow suregrip ones on my old plates. I have always plowed by applying pressure from outside edge to inside edge, which worked great on the old setup - but maybe my softer cushions are taking necessary pressure away from the outside edges? (I have stupidly flexible ankles too, so maybe I also need to build up ankle strength for my outside edges.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by big-red
That when you had the plastic plate the plate was warping and providing you traction.
I def think that is the case!

Quote:
Originally Posted by big-red
have you tried a lower duro wheel?
A lower duro wheel did actually help with the plowing a bit, but felt like skating through treacle on the straights, and I don't think it was the right substitute for crappy plow technique

Quote:
Originally Posted by pikaia
I'm not familiar with Roll Lines, but thinking about what you're experiencing, I wonder if softer cushions and/or loosening up the trucks might help.
I tried all the cushions that Roll Line make, and whilst it was an interesting experiment in action, none of it affected my plow at all (weird) - if anything, the harder ones made the plow slightly better (but again, perhaps this is as a result of more pressure available to the outside wheels.

Thanks for all the help you guys - I've got a few more things to try after reading this - got a free skate session tonight so gonna work on outside edges a lotttt - will report back if it helps
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Old March 29th, 2014, 05:23 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikaia View Post
I'm not familiar with Roll Lines, but thinking about what you're experiencing, I wonder if softer cushions and/or loosening up the trucks might help.
This was my conclusion also. The only other thing if you've exhausted those options is, is the plate length/mount very different from the other plates you've tried?
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Old March 29th, 2014, 10:38 PM   #12
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wouldn't having harder cushions and tighter action be beneficial as then it would be easier to break the traction of the wheels as opposed to soft cushions which would be helping to maintain grip?
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Old March 31st, 2014, 09:35 AM   #13
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Default spose this could be a close comparo

Tim has rock hard cushions on a boen setup and white shamans
I have a soft set up on venus plates with white shamans
I cant plow stop very well on my setup.
Tim plow stops at speed so much so i wonder how the hell he does it.

tim is a more skilled skater than i.
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Old March 31st, 2014, 07:11 PM   #14
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because the softer setup allows more of the wheel to stay in contact with the ground for longer?
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Old April 1st, 2014, 05:54 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveho View Post
because the softer setup allows more of the wheel to stay in contact with the ground for longer?
It could be as simple as they have different abilities to skate. So Tim can do something he can't...regardless as to what each person is skating.
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Old April 9th, 2014, 02:14 AM   #16
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When I first got my Roll Lines I couldn't plow to save my life. I had a very strong plow before. It took me a lot more time and work to get it right, and harder wheels. I can now do it very quickly from a fast speed. I have the softest cushions available and the trucks as loose as they'll go. I don't know if that is helpful at all to, but that's my experience with them.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 02:15 PM   #17
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UPDATE!

A coupla weeks ago I switched out the Roll Line for a Mag Avenger plate. Same wheelbase as the Roll Line, same wheels, same (approx) cushion hardness. Mounted slightly more forward.

As soon as the Avenger was on my screechy plow was back. Sharp stops from speed; all the traction I could want. And a bit lighter to boot.

I'm kinda gutted, as I LOVE how the Roll Line skates (even with its extra weight) - but it's clearly not for me It's so weird, all previous 10-degree nylon plates have been fine. 45-degree Avenger plate is fine. The weird Arius plate is fine. But not the 15-degree Roll-Line.

Ah well, maybe I have a phantom plate. Or phantom can't-plow-a-roll-line syndrome.
No-one in my league could plow it either - could the mount have been the problem all along? I'm dubious that such a small difference would change a plow so drastically.

I JUST DON'T KNOW! Someone buy it off me and give it the plows it deserves! (or work out just wtf I was doing to fail so hard with it :P)

Thank you all for your help and comments btw - I tried literally everything you guys recommended. Guess it's the Avenger for me after all :/
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 05:40 AM   #18
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That is so strange. Part of me wants to say it just goes to show how we all skate differently - for me, the Roll Lines and 5-10 degree plates are easy to plow stop on, but the Avenger is really difficult.

But if numerous people tried it and couldn't plow - it does make me think there could have been a mount issue.
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