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Old May 17th, 2011, 10:17 AM   #1
Reckless
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Default Roll Line Matrix vs Energy Titanium

Roll Line Matrix vs Energy Titanium

I have been skating 10 years, and in the last year I have become a Roller derby Referee. My skating style is more similar to that of a Roller Hockey player.
I also participate in the Goodwood Roller Marathon (on quads).
Recently I decided to make some considerable investment and buy two pairs of skates.
The first is Riedell 1065 boot / Matrix plate. The second Antik Boot / Energy Titanium plate (Original intention was going to be a Mistral, but something went wrong, I'm still waiting for the Antik boots).

I have always skated with my actions on the loose side, and always had difficulty on my old skates finding cushions soft enough.

The Roll Line actions are beautifully fluid, but still prefer softer cushions than recommended.
I've had the Riedell / Matrix skate for about 6 weeks now. And so far have not managed to set the plate up quite how I like it. I weigh 75kg. I have been experimenting with different combinations of cushions and if I set them up how I like, I bottom out doing tight cross overs. If I use harder cushions to prevent this I just don't like the feel. It's as if I have to fight the plate to get it to turn.

Last week the Energy Titanium's arrived and I put the clear blue cushions on (for 55kg). Fitted them to the Riedell boot and instantly fell in love with them. I now had a plate that I could set the actions to exactly what I liked and do the tight turns/ cross overs with out bottoming out . Yes I could feel they're higher off the ground, but under the circumstances felt this to be better. I'm using 62/63mm wheels (Formula, Forester and Grease).

I know I'm new to this level of plate, but I'm disappointed that I bottom out on the Matrix. I'm now thinking of putting a thin layer of plywood between the boot/plate to prevent the bottom out. But it seems crazy that I should have to do this on such a plate.

I know the Matrix plate is lower to the ground and they appear to have done this by shortening the top cushion. However this has lead to my bottom out problem. Also in shortening the top cushions they appear to have increased the action angle (if actions angles are measured from the vertical on quads). I took some photos of both plates and using photoshop plotted some points and used a bit of mathematics to calculate the angles.

By my calculations (not totally sure how accurate they are). the Action Angles are: Energy 50 Deg, Matrix 54 Deg. The Energy angle is more vertical therefore should be more maneuverable?

I'd love to hear other opinions / recommendations on this.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 01:30 PM   #2
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I had the same problem with Ring vs Giotto. While I love the action on the Ring/Matrix, the angle and height made me bottom out during crossovers. So even though I prefer the action of the Ring, I stayed with a Giotto. It's unfortunate....
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Old May 17th, 2011, 01:35 PM   #3
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I agree, the height kills it....Id go with the energy with the titanium bits if you can afford them. Throw some clear green cushions on there with no clicks and git yer skate aWN!
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Old May 17th, 2011, 01:45 PM   #4
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As I'd like to keep using the Matrix, I'll try a thin layer of plywood and see if that fixes the problem. Of course it kills the original design of the plate, but if it works it should be no worse the the Energy.

If anyone else has any better ideas I'd welcome them.

Many thanks
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Old May 17th, 2011, 02:04 PM   #5
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Snyder Royal SS.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 02:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckless View Post
Roll Line Matrix vs Energy Titanium

I have been skating 10 years, and in the last year I have become a Roller derby Referee. My skating style is more similar to that of a Roller Hockey player.
I also participate in the Goodwood Roller Marathon (on quads).
Recently I decided to make some considerable investment and buy two pairs of skates.
The first is Riedell 1065 boot / Matrix plate. The second Antik Boot / Energy Titanium plate (Original intention was going to be a Mistral, but something went wrong, I'm still waiting for the Antik boots).

I have always skated with my actions on the loose side, and always had difficulty on my old skates finding cushions soft enough.

The Roll Line actions are beautifully fluid, but still prefer softer cushions than recommended.

Excellent description... And I agree about the cushion recommendations.. I run all greens on all my Roll Lines and I'm a hair over 100 kg. (There... I fixed it...)

I've had the Riedell / Matrix skate for about 6 weeks now. And so far have not managed to set the plate up quite how I like it. I weigh 75kg. I have been experimenting with different combinations of cushions and if I set them up how I like, I bottom out doing tight cross overs. If I use harder cushions to prevent this I just don't like the feel. It's as if I have to fight the plate to get it to turn.

Uh huh... The shorter large cushion reaches it's limit of elasticity sooner which means the "spring rate" increases... Since some of us run the "standard" height Roll Line actions on all greens at zero clicks making the rate increase serves us no purpose.. In addition, the Roll Line click action does not allow you to set it at no load which is where i prefer mine to be,,,..

Last week the Energy Titanium's arrived and I put the clear blue cushions on (for 55kg). Fitted them to the Riedell boot and instantly fell in love with them. I now had a plate that I could set the actions to exactly what I liked and do the tight turns/ cross overs with out bottoming out . Yes I could feel they're higher off the ground, but under the circumstances felt this to be better. I'm using 62/63mm wheels (Formula, Forester and Grease).

Interesting.. Those wheels are awfully darn expensive.. Just like the rest of their stuff. Based on my observations of other wheels and value vs performance (IE are more expensive wheels better performers...) those are not a good deal for derby...

I know I'm new to this level of plate, but I'm disappointed that I bottom out on the Matrix. I'm now thinking of putting a thin layer of plywood between the boot/plate to prevent the bottom out. But it seems crazy that I should have to do this on such a plate.

No it's all in the geometry..

I know the Matrix plate is lower to the ground and they appear to have done this by shortening the top cushion.

While you are studying, look at the pivot pin on the trucks..

However this has lead to my bottom out problem. Also in shortening the top cushions they appear to have increased the action angle (if actions angles are measured from the vertical on quads). I took some photos of both plates and using photoshop plotted some points and used a bit of mathematics to calculate the angles.

So post 'em up... We have been having a long running "discussion" about what the term action angle really means... A breath of fresh air may be just the ticket..

By my calculations (not totally sure how accurate they are). the Action Angles are: Energy 50 Deg, Matrix 54 Deg. The Energy angle is more vertical therefore should be more maneuverable?

Like I said, show us yer pix..

I'd love to hear other opinions / recommendations on this.
My recommendation?? You don't want to know my recommendation...

Aww Kennedy, ya spoiled the surprise..
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Last edited by Doc Sk8; May 17th, 2011 at 04:35 PM. Reason: Bad math..
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Old May 17th, 2011, 02:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
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My recommendation?? You don't want to know my recommendation...

Aww Kennedy, ya spoiled the surprise..
things i didnt know about doc...he weights 485 lbs..
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Old May 17th, 2011, 02:55 PM   #8
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I have yet to meet someone who bought a Matrix and is happy with it.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 03:29 PM   #9
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Quote:
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things i didnt know about doc...he weights 485 lbs..
He carries it very well from the pictures I've seen.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 04:01 PM   #10
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He carries it very well from the pictures I've seen.
IS DOC THE 500 LB GORILLA ?!....im not telling
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Old May 17th, 2011, 04:31 PM   #11
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Red face Nothing like doing math when I'm asleep...

220 lbs... about 100kg... DUH OK I'm a duma$$
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Old May 17th, 2011, 04:41 PM   #12
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Nah, we knew what you meant. I do that sort of thing frequently. I was helping my son with a report he was doing on Beethoven this weekend, and I couldn't believe how many times I completely typed the wrong word.

Last edited by Dec8rSk8r; May 17th, 2011 at 09:50 PM.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 04:56 PM   #13
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Somewhere in the artistic forum there is a thread about cusions and using a firmer one on top and a softer one on the bottom (that could be backwards). On my Giottos I run all clear. I like them STIFF. On the Varient M I run blue on top and gray on the bottom. That might be backwards, I would have to look. What ever it is the combo has made all the difference in these plates. I noticed right away that my edges were steadier especially for backwards outside. My coach even noticed my skating was better.

Katy
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Old May 17th, 2011, 06:47 PM   #14
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running all grey (well its that funny grey/bluey colour) on my rings. even with the clicker backed right out never had them bottom out.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 06:51 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post
Interesting.. Those wheels are awfully darn expensive.. Just like the rest of their stuff. Based on my observations of other wheels and value vs performance (IE are more expensive wheels better performers...) those are not a good deal for derby...
I'm based is Europe and Roll Line wheels are quite a bit cheaper here, and if I buy derby wheels from America although I sure they're good, by the time I've paid import duty, They'll be a lot more expensive. However one of the floors we play on here is a wooden floor which is a bit on the slippery side. The Formula wheel on the floor is amazing. It grips well but when it slides, it still gives you excellent control. I could go on.... but this is a bit off topic

Regarding posting pics. I'm being thick here. If I select the insert image icon. it asks for a URL. I just want to upload it from my hard drive. How do you upload a pic from the hard drive?
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Last edited by Reckless; May 18th, 2011 at 10:40 AM.
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Old May 17th, 2011, 08:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckless View Post
Regarding posting pics. I'm being thick here. If I select the insert image icon. it asks for a URL. I just want to upload it from my hard drive. How do you upload a pic from the hard drive?
You can't upload from your hard drive. Join www.photobucket.com or www.flickr.com (both are free, though I do prefer PB over Flickr), load your pics, then copy the image code and paste it in.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 03:22 AM   #17
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Here are the Photos of the Matrix and Energy plates illustrating the action angles (from the horizontal). The photos were not quite square, so that's why the horizontal line is slightly off.

Matrix



Energy



According to one thread, action angles are calculated from the vertical on quads, but according to the URL below they are calculated from the horizontal, so I've supplied both.
http://quadrollerskating.wikia.com/wiki/User:Spindr


Action angles as follows:

Matrix H 36, V 54
Energy H 40, V 50
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Last edited by Reckless; May 18th, 2011 at 05:34 AM.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 03:27 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Skaters View Post
You can't upload from your hard drive. Join www.photobucket.com or www.flickr.com (both are free, though I do prefer PB over Flickr), load your pics, then copy the image code and paste it in.
Thanks
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Old May 19th, 2011, 06:41 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fresh Eddie Fresh View Post
I have yet to meet someone who bought a Matrix and is happy with it.
I wish I'd known that before I'd bought them.
Seriously - I haven't found much feedback about the Matrix plate on the forum. It would be very useful if all those that had problems would post what problems they had. As well as hearing from the people who love them. Obviously another peace of useful information is the style/type of skating the plate is used for. Then at least people could form an opinion as to whether the plate is suitable for their style. There may well be some conflicting information in there, but at least it would be better than nothing.

But please could all Matrix - Energy users contribute to this thread as I'm sure the more information it contains, the more useful it will be for others into determining which plate is best for them and hopefully prevent them from making the expensive mistake I made.

I'd like to thank people who have contributed so far, particularly the doc who clearly analyzed everything I wrote and gave his experienced advice.

However I do have one question for him?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckless View Post
I'm now thinking of putting a thin layer of plywood between the boot/plate to prevent the bottom out. But it seems crazy that I should have to do this on such a plate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Sk8 View Post

No it's all in the geometry..
I quite happy to except I'm wrong here, but surely if I add a filler between the plate and the sole of the boot, which increases the distance from the wheels to the sole, would not that help to prevent the bottom out?
I know it's crazy/sad to actually have to do that, but that another thing.

Last but not least the action angles, King pin angles and truck angles. I'm quite happy again to except I'm wrong here (again), but this is my current understanding.

The Action Angle (from pivot pin to center of truck yoke) determines how much the truck turns for a given amount of lean on the plate.

The King Pin Angle and Truck Angle (which contributes to the Action Angle) give the plate it's feel/characteristics. Hence it's possible to have two plates that have the same Action Angle and therefore turn the same for the same amount of plate lean, but feel different because the King Pin Angles and Truck Angles are different.

Does that make sense? Can anyone see anything wrong in that logic?
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Old May 19th, 2011, 06:56 AM   #20
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Would you not just bottom out on the plywood?
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