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Roller Dance and Session Skating Forum Discussions about roller dancing, jamskating, rexing, rink session skating, dance circle skating, and similar types of recreational indoor and outdoor skate dancing .

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Old March 29th, 2012, 03:37 PM   #1
YellowNinja
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Default Jamskating - area between jam and artistic boots

Hello all - first time post, long time reader. I searched around for this info, but didn't find it, so apologies if it has been asked before.

I am wondering, with regards to jamskating, what exactly can be done on a low-cut jam boot that cannot be done on an artistic boot? Quick history, I have skated for about 15 years on Riedell 297s and loved them. My jamskating isn't the stuff of legends but I hold my own. I decided last June to get with the program and bought a new setup with Vanilla Curves. Ever since, skating has been a lot less fun. I've tried to push through the adjustment, but even after 9 months my balance still seems off and the shin pain when skating fast sucks. So I need to know if I go back to my 297s what tricks would I be missing out on? And is there anyone else having a long adjustment period when switching to low-cut boots?
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Old March 29th, 2012, 04:27 PM   #2
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I honestly haven't seen anything done on a low cut boot that can't be done on a high top boot. I have seen a few moves done on a high top boot that maybe difficult to recreate on a low top. Many jamskating moves have been pieced together from many different regions and styles from skaters who wore high top skates in the first place. There are many more light weight choices for low cut boots as opposed to high top, but there are a few light weight artistic boots as well. I would say if you balance better with the heel of an artistic boot to stick with that. There's also the possibility that Riedell could custom make you a low cut boot with an artistic style heel.
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Old March 29th, 2012, 04:36 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowNinja View Post
... And is there anyone else having a long adjustment period when switching to low-cut boots?
Can't really comment on the rest (anything I'm interested in seems to work just fine for others on art boots, albeit not laced all the way up), but I did make the transfer from art to low-cut boots.

I did find it hard to begin with, mostly because of the lack of heel making my ballance way off but also with achilles heel pain from having to be stretched further! The pain lasted about 3 months and after 6 I had enough flexibility to be able to pull my toes up enough for it to actually be useful.

Right now I have a bit of a cheat though, my hi-tops have a low 1/2" heel and my low-cut boots have a 1/4" heel, plus a thick insole that makes it up to about 1/2" ... this makes switching lots easier
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Old March 29th, 2012, 10:11 PM   #4
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Default Balance.....

Your balance and comfort is the key. Pretty much you will need to experiment and find out what set up is more comfortable for you. To do some "JB" moves RollerBones or equivalent wheels 57mm. You might look at You Tube and check out the skaters and see what they wear. Hi Tops or Mids and look at what moves there doing.

Boots are an issue, because they take a long time to break in. I had Fandango boots and they took over a year to break in and feel comfortable. But I have custom set ups. It a long time to get where I'm at
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Old March 30th, 2012, 02:15 AM   #5
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Can't really comment on the rest (anything I'm interested in seems to work just fine for others on art boots, albeit not laced all the way up), but I did make the transfer from art to low-cut boots.

I did find it hard to begin with, mostly because of the lack of heel making my ballance way off but also with achilles heel pain from having to be stretched further! The pain lasted about 3 months and after 6 I had enough flexibility to be able to pull my toes up enough for it to actually be useful.

Right now I have a bit of a cheat though, my hi-tops have a low 1/2" heel and my low-cut boots have a 1/4" heel, plus a thick insole that makes it up to about 1/2" ... this makes switching lots easier
What she said. I had the roughest time going from a skate boot with a heel (Riedell 220) to a skate boot without a heel (Riedell 695). After skating on a 220 for over 30 years then going to the 695...after only a few hours I could feel the difference in my back. Changed the mount, changed the wheels, changed the suspension adustments, etc. Nothing worked. Never had back problems in my life.

Needless to say I sold the 695 setup...parted it out...and went back to the 220. After which my back was happy again.

You wouldn't think that small a change would matter but it does. It changes your entire skating posture. Even when it doesn't seem like it matters while you're skating you may feel a difference later.
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Old March 30th, 2012, 05:45 AM   #6
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I didn't even mention it in my original post, but thank you to Edward and Wild for bringing up the heel issue. Skating at a rink where almost no one has seen jam boots, the first question I get is "how do you skate without the upper part of the boot?" To which I have to respond "I could deal with that, it's the lack of a heel that's more disconcerting". Thank you for your opinions and experiences though. Part of me wants to keep going at it since I have money invested now, but the fun and comfort may not be worth it.
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Old April 1st, 2012, 06:36 AM   #7
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Default Ankles Flat to the Floor

Hi YellowNinja

Quick One then back to reading for a better reply.

The Low Cut allows you to easily flatten your ankles to near 90 degrees and put your wheel edges down on the floor. I now use this on the one right foot when skating forward. I know buds that can do both sides.

It is a pretty neat move. You can actually go out or in placing wheel edges to the floor. High Tops will prevent that move.

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
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Old April 1st, 2012, 06:44 AM   #8
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Default Mobility in Movement

Hi Again,

Now I know we have posts and YouTube stuff from JamSkateAddiction (our Courtney) that shows some of what you can do. Yet I have seen even more and fast stuff from guys.

http://www.youtube.com/user/JamSkateAddiction

Think of walking on the sides of your wheels on both feet wheels out and then wheels in. Mostly it is a fast transition move.

If you want to get to the TOP you will need low cuts. That said I have seen many great jam skaters on high tops laced down. They limit their moves and foot work, yet have fast feet.

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
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Old April 1st, 2012, 01:59 PM   #9
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Default Are You Talking About This Move?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MANY_SkatingDave View Post
Hi YellowNinja

Quick One then back to reading for a better reply.

The Low Cut allows you to easily flatten your ankles to near 90 degrees and put your wheel edges down on the floor. I now use this on the one right foot when skating forward. I know buds that can do both sides.

It is a pretty neat move. You can actually go out or in placing wheel edges to the floor. High Tops will prevent that move.

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
Are You Talking About This Move?


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Old April 2nd, 2012, 03:45 AM   #10
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Default Yep That is IT

Hey Great WildStyle!!

Got to look at those pictures again. OK Did.. He is good with that ankle twist to the floor on the outside. I see the bent knee up to the hip just a smidgen which is normally needed to make it look so Cool..

Seen it done also twisting the ankle towards the center (outside of wheels in and on the floor) which is dang harder. I would share a picture of my onw buddy yet I would have to ask him first.

BTW, these are bigger guys in your photo, and normally I have only seen this great foot work on thinner, younger guys. SO I applaud these two great male skaters. They do have skate talent.

BTW, just so you know in case you didn't, being so much older I am not a jam skater. Seen lots real and web yet not one. I do like running the right foot on the floor in that position as I skate fast since it is pretty neat and defies people who can't even skate. When my left knee is finally all better I am going to try that foot.

Anyway thanks for some Great Pictures.

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
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Old April 2nd, 2012, 07:03 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by MANY_SkatingDave View Post
Hey Great WildStyle!!

Got to look at those pictures again. OK Did.. He is good with that ankle twist to the floor on the outside. I see the bent knee up to the hip just a smidgen which is normally needed to make it look so Cool..

Seen it done also twisting the ankle towards the center (outside of wheels in and on the floor) which is dang harder. I would share a picture of my onw buddy yet I would have to ask him first.

BTW, these are bigger guys in your photo, and normally I have only seen this great foot work on thinner, younger guys. SO I applaud these two great male skaters. They do have skate talent.

BTW, just so you know in case you didn't, being so much older I am not a jam skater. Seen lots real and web yet not one. I do like running the right foot on the floor in that position as I skate fast since it is pretty neat and defies people who can't even skate. When my left knee is finally all better I am going to try that foot.

Anyway thanks for some Great Pictures.

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
Well thanks man.
That is actually me doing the move at a roller derby halftime show in STL around 2008. I can do the move with my wheels on the outside the easiest, or with one or both skates with wheels different directions. Its most difficult for me to put both skates flat with the wheels on the inside.
But its a common move from my area to do that in high top skates.
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 04:51 AM   #12
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Damn thats a cool move- i knew it could be done in hightops also-folks that wear low cut skates don't understand, but truthfully,i think the skill to be able to lay your ankles out like that (hyper-mobility) is due not only to skill, but genetics also-if you ain't built that way then you just ain't! LOL. I myself, am a bit hyper-moble in my joints but cannot lay all the way to the floor due to a bad sprain that healed poorly a couple of years back, but i can come pretty close-and i wear Reidell 121's.
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 06:20 PM   #13
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Default Funky Trust Me You can do IT

Hey funky,

OK I have to come back to this post for our starting poster and then for WildStyle. My wife called me to supper when I was almost done composing a note back. I wanted to start with him first..

WildStyle really needs to buy some low_cuts... More later, yet with that much talent he needs the right boots.

Funky, First you have got to remember I am lots older than you, so this move comes one step at a time for me; whereas, with young kids that watch me they get almost anything I do in just a few sessions. BTW that is a bummer for ego IF I had one. NO not genetics, just drive.

Anyway start off slow going forward and just catch the edge of the wheels. As you do it more you can flatten the foot to the floor going forward or backwards if you wish.

Lots of center floor dances exist that might help you play with that skate position. I posted some of them under Main.

Funky, Play with the position and in short time you will be able to jump out with both skates flat to the ground. Same with the heel-heel up spin in the middle with chin almost to the floor. work it and then get there.

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 07:03 PM   #14
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Hey funky,

OK I have to come back to this post for our starting poster and then for WildStyle. My wife called me to supper when I was almost done composing a note back. I wanted to start with him first..

WildStyle really needs to buy some low_cuts... More later, yet with that much talent he needs the right boots.

Funky, First you have got to remember I am lots older than you, so this move comes one step at a time for me; whereas, with young kids that watch me they get almost anything I do in just a few sessions. BTW that is a bummer for ego IF I had one. NO not genetics, just drive.
Y
Anyway start off slow going forward and just catch the edge of the wheels. As you do it more you can flatten the foot to the floor going forward or backwards if you wish.

Lots of center floor dances exist that might help you play with that skate position. I posted some of them under Main.

Funky, Play with the position and in short time you will be able to jump out with both skates flat to the ground. Same with the heel-heel up spin in the middle with chin almost to the floor. work it and then get there.

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
I doubt I would be any good on low tops after so many years on high tops. Muscle memory can be a mother. Lol. Besides I tried it once and it felt like I was going to fall backwards the whole time. And I need a heel to do JB and and some of the elements of artistic skating I do regularly. But I take it folks don't do that with artistic boots in your area.
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Old April 3rd, 2012, 09:00 PM   #15
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I believe the biggest difference is the heel height. I used to skate art boots laced down and did well with them. When I went to a low cut boot, I adapted pretty quickly, but the boots I went to have a low heel. They are not flat. Flat boots are uncomfortable for me, and throw my balance off a bit.

I notice the lack of heel mostly when moving backward. I am most stable when my weight is mostly on the ball of my foot. The heel makes it easier to have that stance with all wheels still (somewhat) evenly weighted.

You may want to add a heel to the Curves. 3/8" to 1/2" might give you the best of both worlds while taking away your shin pain.

You could also sell the Curves and go back to art boots. No harm in that.
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Old April 4th, 2012, 05:19 PM   #16
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Quick One,
Yet I really have to come back to the Starting Poster.

Wild I remember when I moved from Rentals that I had used forever which have a heel to low tops/smaller heel/wider wheel. I had a buddy that wanted me to improve and finally buy my own 21st century skates so he brought two pairs to skating SO I could skate on his skates. He could not believe how fast I skated well doing all my moves. The boots fit me OK except for backwards skating. He eventually sold me his, he wanted to give them to me.

Now I probably should have done some research and found low tops with a bit more of a heel. I noticed some stuff I was working on became harder to do like spins in both directions, and other stuff.

DocSk8 showed on one tread where I asked about Roll_Line Plates a low cut photo where he had put in a heel lifter. Pretty much looked like an Art boot with the top leather cut off. Anyway whoever asked for it knew what they wanted to do when skating.

Yours in Skating, MA/NY Skating Dave
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Old April 5th, 2012, 09:33 PM   #17
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I notice the lack of heel mostly when moving backward.
This is true for me as well. My girlfriend keeps asking when she gets to see me go fast backwards. I just say I don't do that anymore

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You could also sell the Curves and go back to art boots. No harm in that.
My old skates, still complete, are sitting in my closet. So that is still an option. But having money invested in the new ones makes me hesitant to make that decision. And who's to say that I'm not a month away from crossing that barrier and all of a sudden I'm fine on them? Although with as long as I've been skating, I figured that I would have it by now.
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Old April 5th, 2012, 09:41 PM   #18
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Thank you everyone for your replies and opinions. This has been what I've been looking for. I'm starting to think that what I want to do can be done just fine in my old setup. The flat foot, broken ankle stuff is really cool, but I'm not sure my feet can do it, regardless of boot. And I'm not sure that small gain is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by funkysk8r View Post
Damn thats a cool move- i knew it could be done in hightops also-folks that wear low cut skates don't understand, but truthfully,i think the skill to be able to lay your ankles out like that (hyper-mobility) is due not only to skill, but genetics also-if you ain't built that way then you just ain't!
I agree with this - I have tried these moves on both high and low cuts, and although I can get close, I just can't go flat.
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Old April 6th, 2012, 12:55 AM   #19
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I was in the high tops for about 20 years, then wanted jamskates. Ended up getting a sweet deal on Riedell 965 with ProLine. The 965 has a definite heel, but it is smaller than the normal high top. The weight difference is incredible with this boot and plate! I feel like I have a lot more dexterity and find myself lifting my foot more than before, definitely a better look when doing any kind of jamming. Maybe you can get some small heels added to your vanilla's?
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Old April 24th, 2012, 07:45 AM   #20
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Hello YellowNinja.

Well, there isn't anything I've seen yet IMHO that can only be done on one or the other, but the build of the boot lends advantage to certain moves. The high heel helps push the body over the skate. The joint of the foot will rest more firmly over the front axle. When edging, this is understandable because the wider the foot pad, the greater the area for lateral leverage. Essentially, the front of the foot is better suited to edging than the back heel. The heel is more narrow so it's harder to get strong inside/outside rocking.

The 297 is good boot and obviously it has served you well. I also think you did well in experimenting with something different. It gave you the contrast you needed and no time was lost. It reads like you maybe tried the low-cut in an attempt to more easily execute the broken ankle and this was perhaps the spark for your original posted question.

You probably found that the broken ankle was easier, but you realized that flexibility of the body was still very important (regardless of the boot build). I actually discovered this in a similar way. However, one of the things I learned in practice is that building strength in the ankle maneuver is integral to building the flexibility.

The 297 is good boot, but even well worn, not necessarily suited to broken ankles. That's why some of the freestylers are particular about the boot. They want a vinyl or a Riedell OG (revamp), Hyde Betty Lytle (vintage), or a SpTeri Formula ONE (new). Those have the firm base with a very soft upper and neck. If the counters are too stiff in the boot, you will have trouble getting the freedom. People also gut the boot. This will give you the higher heel and soft uppers though it is not safe. Then when the broken ankle is executed, the foot can swim in the boot (but not too much) and that can be enough to create the full effect.


I wanted to share this because it may help you as well. I'm convinced you can do this, but some have to approach the same goal from different angles. I just want to give you encouragement, especially since you've been working at it - and I'm willing to bet you're closer than you realize to really nailing this. I'm not a physician, but you'll be amazed at what's possible. The body has a phenomenal amount of adaptive plasticity to it. Safety first, but I think with perseverance you'll have this one in the sack after repetition.


Best wishes in your skating!
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